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CRF250F CRF250F power compared to XR250R

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9 hours ago, bajatrailrider said:

Its even worse when people write about a bike they don't have. Or know nothing about that bike with mods. More useless info

That is not exactly true.  We can write accurately about bikes owned by people we ride with for sure.  While I have never personally owned a Honda XR600R my buddy did and we rode countless miles and years together and I spent plenty of time on top of his XR600 myself.  While I have never personally owned a Honda XL600R my father did and I rode countless miles and years on that bike.  I have also spent quite some time on top of WR250F and YZ250F.  One lived in my garage and one did not but I can tell you how much I hate both of them in the areas we ride.

Just because we do not "have" a bike does not mean we do not know a bike a very well.  Let's not confuse Hear-Say with first-hand personal experience and observation.

Most riders in this forum are pretty good about sharing first-hand personal experience and observation in my opinion...

Edited by VortecCPI
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59 minutes ago, VortecCPI said:

That is not exactly true.  We can write accurately about bikes owned by people we ride with for sure.  While I have never personally owned a Honda XR600R my buddy did and we rode countless miles and years together and I spent plenty of time on top of his XR600 myself.  While I have never personally owned a Honda XL600R my father did and I rode countless miles and years on that bike.  I have also spent quite some time on top of WR250F and YZ250F.  One lived in my garage and one did not but I can tell you how much I hate both of them in the areas we ride.

Just because we do not "have" a bike does not mean we do not know a bike a very well.  Let's not confuse Hear-Say with first-hand personal experience and observation.

Most riders in this forum are pretty good about sharing first-hand personal experience and observation in my opinion...

Good point. Well taken. There is something to be said for an observation of a professional tuner and racer as compared to a self proclaimed expert that can bolt together a few recipe parts and make a little noise at the local sand pit and pretend to be the last and final word on motorcycle performance. We can all learn here by sharing our individual experiences with our progress and failures. Both opinions have value here but the opinions can be shared in the spirit of understanding and respect for another person's perspective and experience. Thanks for sharing.

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1 minute ago, everlastneverfast said:

Good point. Well taken. There is something to be said for an observation of a professional tuner and racer as compared to a self proclaimed expert that can bolt together a few recipe parts and make a little noise at the local sand pit and pretend to be the last and final word on motorcycle performance. We can all learn here by sharing our individual experiences with our progress and failures. Both opinions have value here but the opinions can be shared in the spirit of understanding and respect for another person's perspective and experience. Thanks for sharing.

In my opinion THIS forum has some of the most helpful and experienced and knowledgeable people I have ever interacted with.  Most in here are pretty humble and very open to discussions based upon both theory and practice.  Most also seem to be very able to discuss in context which, for some reason, most others seem to have a very hard time grasping.

One can not say "THIS is better than THAT" without context.  "A Corvette is better than a Dodge Ram"  Really?  Ever tow a boat or put a snow plow on a Corvette?

Same for engine and suspension - In that regard it's ALL about context...

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10 hours ago, bajatrailrider said:

Its even worse when people write about a bike they don't have. Or know nothing about that bike with mods. More useless info

I can read camshaft specs and know how it will work on a specific engine..

I can also read suspension specs and see things like "damper rod" and "non-adjustable" and give a pretty accurate description of the potential performance of that system...

Once you understand the engineering principles and combine them with experience, you can predict a lot of mechanical componentry functions with solid accuracy

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1 hour ago, mixxer said:

Once you understand the engineering principles and combine them with experience, you can predict a lot of mechanical componentry functions with solid accuracy

Many predictions of 250F performance or lack thereof were made in this forum over a year ago. Nobody had actually seen a 250F ,much less ridden it.

Looking back, these all seem pretty accurate to me.

One topic that has not been mentioned is the 5 speed transmission which was predicted to be terrible... so how about an update on that?

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7 minutes ago, RedMesa said:

Many predictions of 250F performance or lack thereof were made in this forum over a year ago. Nobody had actually seen a 250F ,much less ridden it.

Looking back, these all seem pretty accurate to me.

One topic that has not been mentioned is the 5 speed transmission which was predicted to be terrible... so how about an update on that?

Very much use dependant there...

In the woods , for me, you could take 5th and 6th gear sets out of my 230 and I would never know it..lol... I'm +1 on cs sprocket and -1 on rear sprocket...

But on open desert like some of you guys ride ,you could probably find a 7th gear useful...

Engine power... Gear spacing... Intended use... All part of it...

I would guess that a heavy and underpowered 250 4 stroke would benefit from more gears in general... If you don't need em, you just don't use em... But if you need something that isn't available, you're boned...

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1 minute ago, mixxer said:

Very much use dependant there...

In the woods , for me, you could take 5th and 6th gear sets out of my 230 and I would never know it..lol... I'm +1 on cs sprocket and -1 on rear sprocket...

But on open desert like some of you guys ride ,you could probably find a 7th gear useful...

Engine power... Gear spacing... Intended use... All part of it...

I would guess that a heavy and underpowered 250 4 stroke would benefit from more gears in general... If you don't need em, you just don't use em... But if you need something that isn't available, you're boned...

I have very rarely used sixth gear but when I have I sure appreciated it.  I love wide-ratio gearboxes for the sort of riding we do.

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I have always said back east guys should have no problems . Five sp. 250f dirt trails slow speeds. Now I have one to report as tested . For West coast and Baja and fool sport needs 6 gears. You guys already knew that. IMG_20200210_113859874.jpeg

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In my opinion THIS forum has some of the most helpful and experienced and knowledgeable people I have ever interacted with.  Most in here are pretty humble and very open to discussions based upon both theory and practice.  Most also seem to be very able to discuss in context which, for some reason, most others seem to have a very hard time grasping.
One can not say "THIS is better than THAT" without context.  "A Corvette is better than a Dodge Ram"  Really?  Ever tow a boat or put a snow plow on a Corvette?
Same for engine and suspension - In that regard it's ALL about context...
Vortex sorry 350 Chevy big block Chevy xr250 crf450 or Harley. Useless info when we talk about 230s. I can say I had them all but can't compare to a 230. Then the posters know it all don't have one . I will admit I was as bad as this. When the 230 first came out. I got many PM's from back east guys racing them. I even posted I do not think . The 230 can ever make power to get up big hill climbs. Like our xr300s I was wrong big time. Till the stroked 230s came around. Was almost shocked when my stroked girls bike. Beat my own xr300 just flat left it. Out climbs it easy not to say any 230 or built one is fast. Just to say it is in front of many bigger bikes. I'm sure only hook up problem of other bikes. As most of the time it is dry here. No hook up that is when the girls bike shines. Wet dirt all bikes hook up . So talk is cheap riding is just that.
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1 hour ago, bajatrailrider said:

Vortex sorry 350 Chevy big block Chevy xr250 crf450 or Harley. Useless info when we talk about 230s. I can say I had them all but can't compare to a 230. Then the posters know it all don't have one . I will admit I was as bad as this. When the 230 first came out. I got many PM's from back east guys racing them. I even posted I do not think . The 230 can ever make power to get up big hill climbs. Like our xr300s I was wrong big time. Till the stroked 230s came around. Was almost shocked when my stroked girls bike. Beat my own xr300 just flat left it. Out climbs it easy not to say any 230 or built one is fast. Just to say it is in front of many bigger bikes. I'm sure only hook up problem of other bikes. As most of the time it is dry here. No hook up that is when the girls bike shines. Wet dirt all bikes hook up . So talk is cheap riding is just that.

Bottom line is we must all be very careful with Blanket Statements.  You're right...  Talk IS cheap...  And meaningless without context...

I guarantee there are plenty of bikes that will spank your CRF254F sideways but at what cost and compromise?  A modern high-tech 2T burns fuel like no tomorrow so no good in your context.  No way will your CRF254F keep an X600 in sight but too big/long/heavy in your context.  I guarantee a modern 4T MX bike will leave you out of the hole as if you are standing still but worthless bike in your context.  You have found a unique balance of features that works very well, perhaps even perfectly, for your needs, but that does not make your CRF254F some sort of beat-anything-anywhere bike.  No way on that.  How does it work in deep sand?  How about endless series of whoops and/or erosion barriers?  Small chassis and wheel base become your worst enemy.

I LOVE my CRF230F but only because I ride slow short tight.  It's a very good bike but only in that context.  When going gets fast long open my buddy's XR250R will murder it, as would the old WR250F.  End of story.  No contest.  Scott Summers showed us mildly-modified XR600R cleans house.  Context+Rider.  There have been MANY times where I longed for an XR600R - That larger chassis and magnificent forgiving engine...

I remember you and I trading emails about CRF230F capabilities WAY back when - 05/03/2015.  Happy it all worked out for you!

Edited by VortecCPI
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3 hours ago, VortecCPI said:

Bottom line is we must all be very careful with Blanket Statements.  You're right...  Talk IS cheap...  And meaningless without context...

I guarantee there are plenty of bikes that will spank your CRF254F sideways but at what cost and compromise?  A modern high-tech 2T burns fuel like no tomorrow so no good in your context.  No way will your CRF254F keep an X600 in sight but too big/long/heavy in your context.  I guarantee a modern 4T MX bike will leave you out of the hole as if you are standing still but worthless bike in your context.  You have found a unique balance of features that works very well, perhaps even perfectly, for your needs, but that does not make your CRF254F some sort of beat-anything-anywhere bike.  No way on that.  How does it work in deep sand?  How about endless series of whoops and/or erosion barriers?  Small chassis and wheel base become your worst enemy.

I LOVE my CRF230F but only because I ride slow short tight.  It's a very good bike but only in that context.  When going gets fast long open my buddy's XR250R will murder it, as would the old WR250F.  End of story.  No contest.  Scott Summers showed us mildly-modified XR600R cleans house.  Context+Rider.  There have been MANY times where I longed for an XR600R - That larger chassis and magnificent forgiving engine...

I remember you and I trading emails about CRF230F capabilities WAY back when - 05/03/2015.  Happy it all worked out for you!

Well stated. Thank you. Different strokes......

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I wanted to love the 250f so bad...just at 250 lbs I couldn’t take myself to do it.... id use up 5 of the 8 inches of travel just sitting on it....I’m no mechanic the 250 f looks very simple to maintain...ended up with a new to me 2015 beta 390 rr....now I’m dealing with hard to find shop times wishing I was riding the simple 250f....choose wisely....when Honda updates the suspension...I’ll own one...xr400 forks n measuring replacing rear shock and or 300cc kit maybe but my 3 hour beta cost less then all that and some nice guy already added all the after market goodies...so wait I must...obviously still lurking this forum as I suspect this bike will grow with popularity n mods will be easy or it gets a factory upgrade...when either happens it will sell very well and I’ll own one...it does have a great Msrp start point which is nice....please keep the info flowing I know I am not the only one watching n waiting....thanks everyone good honest info on this forum 

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This bike is a GREAT “trail bike”

I have rode it here in Idaho on trails and Jeep roads. The power is adequate for all trails. It has so much low end and torque. This is it’s strong point. If you are a horsepower rider......it will be lacking.  
    Sometimes I find myself “rapping it out”.   All it does is make noise...no go at all....

It needs to be “short shifted” and it goes great.... I am 71 years old and I have been riding since 1971. I am 200 lbs.

It was not designed to be a motorcrosser....it is a trail bike.   The suspension needs help ....I have not needed an extra gear....It is not meant to be ridden at high speed.   I love to ride it. It is low to the ground and has plenty of power for the trails

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6 hours ago, holcombr@SLRMC.org said:

This bike is a GREAT “trail bike”

Like probably 98% of buyers you are using the stock 230F or stock 250F the way they were designed to be used: To ride dirt roads, wide gentle trails, and the occasional grassy pasture. So you are happy with the product.

But "trail" means different things. "Adventure Riders" call a road without asphalt or concrete a "trail". 

For those who think of trail as technical singletrack with some speed thrown in, the stock 230F and stock 250F start to show "limitations."

Honda Accountants who run the company would say, they are not limitations: You are misusing our product.

Nonetheless, some of us persist in misusing the product by modifying the 230F. Why?

Because deep down the 230F has the "bones" to become a technical singletrack monster: low power, wide power band, low seat height, simple engine, highly reliable, and highly modifiable.

But it is a large amount of work to transform the stock 230F. Many hoped the 250F would "fix" some of the "limitations" of the 230F. 

This did not happen because probably 98% of the buyers are quite happy with the 250F -- and it is a cash cow for Honda. 

At the dealership, anybody who shows the slightest indication of aggressive riding interest or potential is immediately upsold to a 250X, or if available, a KTM, Husky, or Beta.

After a year, we 230F fanaterati are still processing our disappointment over the 250F -- which has even more "limitations" than the 230F. 

But again, these are not limitations to Honda Accounting.

The FI engine was regrettably required by emissions regulations. Cost of compliance.

Salespeople told Honda that customers noticed the 230F did not have a round shiny thing on the back. A brake disk or something.

So the accountants grudgingly budgeted $2.3129 to each unit to put a round shiny thing on the back. Other than that... forget it. Guide them over to the 250X and start talking about all the Manly Features of a "Real Dirt Bike."

Alas fanaticism does not a market make and Honda does not make motorcycles... They Make Money. So we continue to complain in long boring posts like this and Nobody Cares. Except us. 

Ride on and enjoy your 250F!

Edited by RedMesa
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Bottom line is we must all be very careful with Blanket Statements.  You're right...  Talk IS cheap...  And meaningless without context...
I guarantee there are plenty of bikes that will spank your CRF254F sideways but at what cost and compromise?  A modern high-tech 2T burns fuel like no tomorrow so no good in your context.  No way will your CRF254F keep an X600 in sight but too big/long/heavy in your context.  I guarantee a modern 4T MX bike will leave you out of the hole as if you are standing still but worthless bike in your context.  You have found a unique balance of features that works very well, perhaps even perfectly, for your needs, but that does not make your CRF254F some sort of beat-anything-anywhere bike.  No way on that.  How does it work in deep sand?  How about endless series of whoops and/or erosion barriers?  Small chassis and wheel base become your worst enemy.
I LOVE my CRF230F but only because I ride slow short tight.  It's a very good bike but only in that context.  When going gets fast long open my buddy's XR250R will murder it, as would the old WR250F.  End of story.  No contest.  Scott Summers showed us mildly-modified XR600R cleans house.  Context+Rider.  There have been MANY times where I longed for an XR600R - That larger chassis and magnificent forgiving engine...
I remember you and I trading emails about CRF230F capabilities WAY back when - 05/03/2015.  Happy it all worked out for you!
Vortex did you miss the part. I said a 230 built or not is not fast. ? In early posts I stated it will never be a woop bike. Your also forgetting I have 8 wr450s. From 04 to 18 also for getting . People store bikes here pay me to ride them. 500 ktms 300 ktms about any bike you can think of. Only point I make. How can people post when they don't have the bike I'm talking about . Or if they do it is only a mild build. I also admitted I was like a few posters here. I never rode the 230s would not even think . To buy one because two valve head engine too small . Cannot make grunt power again I should not have commented not owning one. It still was cheap build I have bought 4 or 5 of them for me and ferinds . Each one still had green stripes on tires. From 1200. To 1500. So even after mods still low priced bike. Now take the 250f here it cost 5 grand. To make this 250f work like our 230s wow . Now we are talking no go as too much money. As a side note I let the 250f tires down to 6 psi works much better. Still no setting on seat as could do damage to yourself. The power on it for trail seems very good. I'm wanting to take on all day trail ride. I will need bottle of Advil and two extra kidney belts.
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BTR keeps saying over and over again ...

That no matter how much knowledge and experience you accumulate in life...

It doesn't make you any better at anything you are doing....

Nothing can be applied to anything...

A parallel for illustration:

"You may be an awesome guitarist, and you may have swapped pickups and componentry your whole life,  BUT you don't know sh!t about MY guitar!! even though you know everything from a lifetime of playing and building guitars, and you own this model guitar... You don't know shit about my guitar because nothing applies to anything I own...you probably can't even play a song on it.. and don't even get me started about how much you can't possibly know about my amps, even if you own and use the same one! Your amp knobs only go to 10, while mine go to 11..!!"

 

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16 minutes ago, mixxer said:

That no matter how much knowledge and experience you accumulate in life... It doesn't make you any better at anything you are doing....

I don't think the guy believes this, if only because he shows it isn't true.

Maybe the point being made is that theory does not always predict experiment? Reading specs vs. butt on bike.

But in the case of the 250F every prediction that was made by you, BTR, etc. last year are all borne out by butt on bike testing, it appears to me.

"What we have here... is a failure... to communicate" -- from Cool Hand Luke

It's funny how these arguments seem to occur in winter when many are not riding? ;)

And BTW, my throttle does not use integers... it goes up to 12.3791

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BTR keeps saying over and over again ...
That no matter how much knowledge and experience you accumulate in life...
It doesn't make you any better at anything you are doing....
Nothing can be applied to anything...
A parallel for illustration:
"You may be an awesome guitarist, and you may have swapped pickups and componentry your whole life,  BUT you don't know sh!t about MY guitar!! even though you know everything from a lifetime of playing and building guitars, and you own this model guitar... You don't know shit about my guitar because nothing applies to anything I own...you probably can't even play a song on it.. and don't even get me started about how much you can't possibly know about my amps, even if you own and use the same one! Your amp knobs only go to 10, while mine go to 11..!!"
 
Another stupid post mixxer now you on a roll. You don't impress anybody with your know it all nothing talk. Try to be normal for start. Explain why the stroke bike 250 cc 14/45 gear. Pulls the climbs that the bore only needs 13/50 gear?. Your excuse no two builds the same. Correct but closer then you no test if nothing. Not owning anything to compare. Get off your high and mighty. Talk about riding testing not your B's. Keep ranting gets you no place answer the question.

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Love that scene where Jeff Beck character builds amp that goes to 11.Hilarious! 

Conflicts aside, still tons of good info on this page from all sides

Edited by vulcanduro
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14 hours ago, bajatrailrider said:

Another stupid post mixxer now you on a roll. You don't impress anybody with your know it all nothing talk. Try to be normal for start. Explain why the stroke bike 250 cc 14/45 gear. Pulls the climbs that the bore only needs 13/50 gear?. Your excuse no two builds the same. Correct but closer then you no test if nothing. Not owning anything to compare. Get off your high and mighty. Talk about riding testing not your B's. Keep ranting gets you no place answer the question.

So I assume CRF254F and XR300R have the same:

  • Airbox
  • Air cleaner/filter element
  • Cam
  • Carb
  • Chain
  • Exhaust
  • Forks
  • Frame
  • Head
  • Ignition Timing
  • Jetting
  • Ports
  • Shock
  • Suspension
  • Tires
  • Transmission
  • Valve Size
  • Weight
  • Wheelbase' 

No?  So completely different bikes?  If I am not allowed to compare my old Al Bake XR265R then why are you allowed to compare XR300R?  My old Al Baker XR265R chassis was MUCH closer to the CRF230F chassis since it was the same as XR200R up until 1986.

If that XR300R can't run away and hide from your CRF254F something is very wrong with either the bike or the context of comparison.

Take THAT!!!

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