Rutted Sugar sand berms.

[motrock93b]

I’m a bit different from most dirt bike riders since I really don’t enjoy sand or deep loamy conditions. Since I’ve had to work to become competent under these conditions, maybe some of my ideas may help.

1. Sand can’t be ridden well tentatively. Understanding some of the physics helped me. In sand, the front tire is pushing loose dirt ahead of it which effectively moves it’s contact patch forward. This reduces trail, making the bike less stable. It also increases drag similar to riding with the front brake applied. More power is required than in hardback conditions. It really helps to get your front tire light to minimize these effects, similar to getting a boat hull on it’s plane.

2. A lot of throttle is required to corner smoothly. The day the lightbulb went off for me I was doing figure eights in sand with a friend. As usual, he was doing this better/faster. Gradually, I laid the bike over harder and applied more and more throttle. Eventually, I was passing him as we continued practicing. So, I felt the immediate improvement getting on the throttle hard at the corner entrance made. For me, when I’m dealing with a sketchy front end situation I simply try to get it out of the equation. I try not to rely on it for traction. So, being further back and consciously focusing on driving the rear around with throttle as if trying to do a slight wheelie really helps. Getting the front tire to skim across the sand lightly as much as possible really helps. As you lean into the turn, increase throttle. Try to make a direct connection.

3. Keep your body aligned with the bike. In a hardback flat turn, having your body more upright than the bike’s lean angle helps load the tires down into the terrain for improved traction. In sand, you’re virtually creating your own rut/berm as your tires ride deeper into the terrain. So, allowing your body to drive traction directly into the terrain allows for more precision and reduces the bike’s tendency to stand up in the corner.

There’s a lot going on, as Piney Woods suggests. I think breaking it down into small steps can be very effective, and much less frustrating than trying to approach, slow, lean and rail the entire corner. I’d first focus on entering a “virtual” turn by using a large, flat sandy area with no defined corner. Then, I’d approach at a comfortable speed and attempt little 30 degree changes of direction. Lean the bike and add throttle. Just keep doing this until it starts to feel right. Continue in both directions. Eventually, string it all together with figure eights. With any luck, you’ll also have a lightbulb moment.

[m78val]

Riding the sand is tricky, balance, momentum and throttle, just try to work with the bike, look ahead where you want to be.

[DEATH_INC.]

On 2/6/2020 at 1:38 AM, Joseph Piccirilli jr said:

I know this isn't really related to the thread, but how do you get through a whoop section? I just moved up to a 2013 ktm 250xcf from a 2002 ttr125L, and when I went through a whoop section that I could double on my ttr, the real end kept bucking me back and forth no matter how hard I gripped with my legs. If anybody could help me I'd appreciate it.

Stop gripping so tightly with your legs, let the bike rock backwards and forwards between your legs. Stay standing and centered on the bike. Keep the throttle on.

For the op, all I can remember about deep soft sand is to get on the gas as soon as you lean the bike over, and don't back off for anything.

[Bob Stanley347]

This is the way I learned to do it back in the 70's and it looks like the technique still holds true today.... 

 

[NoFiddyPilot]

 

[Howard94]

14 hours ago, Bryan Bosch said:

 

Just watched this this morning ?. I'm itching to go out and ride.

[Max17]

Deep, rutted, sand corners require a very different technique than other corners.  motrock93b and some of the others have it correct for this particular type of corner.  You absolutely must stay rearward or neutral and maintain speed or accelerate.  Don't brake at all and don't even decelerate too much.  Lean a lot and be in line with the bike through the arc of the turn.  Almost all of this is exactly the opposite of what should be done for most other cornering situations.  temporarily_locked has a lot of good technical advice for a lot of situations but I think his advice in this topic is more applicable to other situations in this case.

Since the best technique(s) are situation-dependent, try a few of them repeatedly for the locations and conditions where you want to improve and find what works best.

[GoneDirtBikeN]

This is meant more as amusement but hey use it too as it works - follow a fast guy into the corner and do as he does. Except yell whooo-hooo on the way out...

Not too, too long ago: Me being the noob I am, a riding buddy convinces me to go to a sand track; my first time on sand. He wasn't there yet as he's always late and I'm always early. First I curse him for using my stupidity to get me to go to a sand track. Then having someone to blame for anything that may happen,  I hit the track by myself. Just tooling along a "fast guy" went by me on my second lap a ways before this big, really big, beautiful sand berm. Unconsciously I latched on and followed him thinking "that looks fun, I want some" haha. I had so much fun just on that one corner the whole rest of the day. Oh yeah, and ever since have been hooked on that feeling mixed in with the adrenaline. What a cocktail that makes!

Can't count the number of times I've watched that MXTV Rider Tip - Sandy berms; and all his others.

Edited February 21, 2020 by GoneDirtBikeN

[Joseph Piccirilli jr]

On 2/16/2020 at 1:28 AM, DEATH_INC. said:

Stop gripping so tightly with your legs, let the bike rock backwards and forwards between your legs. Stay standing and centered on the bike. Keep the throttle on.

For the op, all I can remember about deep soft sand is to get on the gas as soon as you lean the bike over, and don't back off for anything.

Sorry, I meant the back end kept jumping side to side. Somebody said that when you feel the back end go to the left, loosen up your right leg and squeeze with your left, but it still hasn't helped me.

[Joseph Piccirilli jr]

On 2/15/2020 at 12:29 PM, motrock93b said:

I’m a bit different from most dirt bike riders since I really don’t enjoy sand or deep loamy conditions. Since I’ve had to work to become competent under these conditions, maybe some of my ideas may help.

1. Sand can’t be ridden well tentatively. Understanding some of the physics helped me. In sand, the front tire is pushing loose dirt ahead of it which effectively moves it’s contact patch forward. This reduces trail, making the bike less stable. It also increases drag similar to riding with the front brake applied. More power is required than in hardback conditions. It really helps to get your front tire light to minimize these effects, similar to getting a boat hull on it’s plane.

2. A lot of throttle is required to corner smoothly. The day the lightbulb went off for me I was doing figure eights in sand with a friend. As usual, he was doing this better/faster. Gradually, I laid the bike over harder and applied more and more throttle. Eventually, I was passing him as we continued practicing. So, I felt the immediate improvement getting on the throttle hard at the corner entrance made. For me, when I’m dealing with a sketchy front end situation I simply try to get it out of the equation. I try not to rely on it for traction. So, being further back and consciously focusing on driving the rear around with throttle as if trying to do a slight wheelie really helps. Getting the front tire to skim across the sand lightly as much as possible really helps. As you lean into the turn, increase throttle. Try to make a direct connection.

3. Keep your body aligned with the bike. In a hardback flat turn, having your body more upright than the bike’s lean angle helps load the tires down into the terrain for improved traction. In sand, you’re virtually creating your own rut/berm as your tires ride deeper into the terrain. So, allowing your body to drive traction directly into the terrain allows for more precision and reduces the bike’s tendency to stand up in the corner.

There’s a lot going on, as Piney Woods suggests. I think breaking it down into small steps can be very effective, and much less frustrating than trying to approach, slow, lean and rail the entire corner. I’d first focus on entering a “virtual” turn by using a large, flat sandy area with no defined corner. Then, I’d approach at a comfortable speed and attempt little 30 degree changes of direction. Lean the bike and add throttle. Just keep doing this until it starts to feel right. Continue in both directions. Eventually, string it all together with figure eights. With any luck, you’ll also have a lightbulb moment.

I did this the other day with my 52 year old dad. I bought some cones from walmart, set up a slalom course in a sandpit, and just did that for around 2 hours

[motrock93b]

47 minutes ago, Joseph Piccirilli jr said:

I did this the other day with my 52 year old dad. I bought some cones from walmart, set up a slalom course in a sandpit, and just did that for around 2 hours

Did it help?

[Joseph Piccirilli jr]

1 hour ago, motrock93b said:

Did it help?

Yeah he started getting faster than me lmao

[DEATH_INC.]

12 hours ago, Joseph Piccirilli jr said:

Sorry, I meant the back end kept jumping side to side. Somebody said that when you feel the back end go to the left, loosen up your right leg and squeeze with your left, but it still hasn't helped me.

This should really be in it's own thread (sorry Howard), but we kinda started here now...check you don't have your rebound set too stiff, this will cause packing which tends to make it kick sideways.

The problem with the aforementioned advice is once it goes left, the next hit will normally send it right, so you'll actually be loading it the wrong way. You do get some sideways kick if you aren't square to the whoop, or are leaning to the side, or the whoop has a sideways slope.

All I can advise here is too not move your butt back too far, keep forward towards the pivot point of the bike, keep your upper body square behind the bars and let your hips move sideways with the bike.

You don't want to add to the momentum of the bike going sideways and by letting your lower half go with it you'll actually help dampen it out and resist it going too far, and by staying square to the bars will help you stay in control.

Edited March 4, 2020 by DEATH_INC.

[Howard94]

17 hours ago, DEATH_INC. said:

This should really be in it's own thread (sorry Howard), but we kinda started here now...check you don't have your rebound set too stiff, this will cause packing which tends to make it kick sideways.

The problem with the aforementioned advice is once it goes left, the next hit will normally send it right, so you'll actually be loading it the wrong way. You do get some sideways kick if you aren't square to the whoop, or are leaning to the side, or the whoop has a sideways slope.

All I can advise here is too not move your butt back too far, keep forward towards the pivot point of the bike, keep your upper body square behind the bars and let your hips move sideways with the bike.

You don't want to add to the momentum of the bike going sideways and by letting your lower half go with it you'll actually help dampen it out and resist it going too far, and by staying square to the bars will help you stay in control.

Good advice! It's fine that we are discussing whoops too. I enjoy reading all about riding technique.  

Also I went and rode some Sandy trails and really focused on foot out, toe in, and looking through the turn and found myself alot more comfortable. I tried to just do it and not overthink it. 

[Joseph Piccirilli jr]

On 3/3/2020 at 10:47 PM, DEATH_INC. said:

This should really be in it's own thread (sorry Howard), but we kinda started here now...check you don't have your rebound set too stiff, this will cause packing which tends to make it kick sideways.

The problem with the aforementioned advice is once it goes left, the next hit will normally send it right, so you'll actually be loading it the wrong way. You do get some sideways kick if you aren't square to the whoop, or are leaning to the side, or the whoop has a sideways slope.

All I can advise here is too not move your butt back too far, keep forward towards the pivot point of the bike, keep your upper body square behind the bars and let your hips move sideways with the bike.

You don't want to add to the momentum of the bike going sideways and by letting your lower half go with it you'll actually help dampen it out and resist it going too far, and by staying square to the bars will help you stay in control.

I used to race bmx and you're supposed to hang off the back of the bike and "manual" through rhythm sections, so that's gonna be a hard habit to break. I haven't even adjusted the sag on my suspension, so I'll definitely look into adjusting some stuff.

[NORTY]

"Air down" your tires. Front 7-8psi max. You want the biggest footprint you can get without pinching your tube. Or, go tubliss. Keep your speed up. Weight your outside peg. Learn to trust your new found stability. 

[Joseph Piccirilli jr]

8 hours ago, NORTY said:

"Air down" your tires. Front 7-8psi max. You want the biggest footprint you can get without pinching your tube. Or, go tubliss. Keep your speed up. Weight your outside peg. Learn to trust your new found stability. 

alright, i've tried all this but i still can't "lock in" to any berms i hit. I always end up towards the top of the berm and just blowing it out. The berms i'm hitting are very small

[motrock93b]

55 minutes ago, Joseph Piccirilli jr said:

alright, i've tried all this but i still can't "lock in" to any berms i hit. I always end up towards the top of the berm and just blowing it out. The berms i'm hitting are very small

You might be trying to “steer” into the turn, which makes it more difficult to quickly drop the bike into the turn. If so, try countersteering (push your left grip forward to turn left) as you apply throttle and lean into the turn. Also, you might be using the flat turn technique of keeping your upper body more upright than the bike’s lean angle. Just like in a berm, this can cause the bike to stand up more in the corner. Try to corner in sand as if you’re always in a berm with your upper body aligned with the bike. This is because you virtually are in a berm since your tires sink into the soft sand and the turning forces of your tires are placed against the outside of the rut you’re carving into the surface. 
 

So. Countersteer and get on the gas as you lean into the turn with your body aligned with the bike’s lean angle. Keep your outstretched inside leg high and against your shroud. 

[everlastneverfast]

1 hour ago, Joseph Piccirilli jr said:

alright, i've tried all this but i still can't "lock in" to any berms i hit. I always end up towards the top of the berm and just blowing it out. The berms i'm hitting are very small

I enjoy this thread and the many great suggestions for shredding soft corners. Lots of great suggestions. I was trying to add or fine tune the many good methods described here. Soft sandy corners were some of my favorite places to rage like a maniac. Several of my local tracks and haunts had knee deep sugar sand and riding the stuff was second nature. Nothing to add to mechanics of putting bike into corner and firing it out but more towards the riders committment when entering sandy corner. Enter low and allow more room to slide upwards on berm.  I was always taught to charge into corner way too fast and angry and just expect the sand to hold my rear tire. If you're moving fast enough and low in the turn there's plenty of room before you go over the berm. The bike steers with the throttle once it has entered turn so I keep throttle pinned and tickle clutch to keep motor screaming. Don't let bike straighten up until she's turned where you choose and keep your leg out of the soft stuff with toes pointed forward and tucked up by fork leg. If you slide or low side its pillow soft anyways. Proper sand technique requires dropping your bike occasionally. At least the stuff is soft for your landing

[Joseph Piccirilli jr]

30 minutes ago, motrock93b said:

You might be trying to “steer” into the turn, which makes it more difficult to quickly drop the bike into the turn. If so, try countersteering (push your left grip forward to turn left) as you apply throttle and lean into the turn. Also, you might be using the flat turn technique of keeping your upper body more upright than the bike’s lean angle. Just like in a berm, this can cause the bike to stand up more in the corner. Try to corner in sand as if you’re always in a berm with your upper body aligned with the bike. This is because you virtually are in a berm since your tires sink into the soft sand and the turning forces of your tires are placed against the outside of the rut you’re carving into the surface. 
 

So. Countersteer and get on the gas as you lean into the turn with your body aligned with the bike’s lean angle. Keep your outstretched inside leg high and against your shroud. 

I come from a background of bmx, so I'm used to standing up in corners. I'm fairly new to this whole dirt bike thing. I just recently got my first full sized dirt bike back in september so I'm still getting used to it. Thank you for all the tips!