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Beta2Stroke Should Beta move to EFI for 2021 smoker lineup?

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6 minutes ago, Hammy. said:

Define "vast majority"...%60...%75?

Go to the site where actual KTM owners share their experiences with TPI and I find it a solid platform to gain real world information from a wide variety of owners. 

I'm not denying you and some others have had issues, but then again, you could put the same magnifying glass on any brand and find similar faults and failures. 

I am trying to realistically look at TPI through the lense of those who own them, have long term heavy use with them, and have a long history on the carbed versions to gather information to determine whether or not I'd personally choose to purchase a TPI. 

Like I did with my FI Beta 390 purchase, I thoroughly researched before I even considered it am option. I'm not the guy to jump on new technology without it being thoroughly vetted and having a history of high performance, reliability, and durability. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

 

The throttle body is mechanical.... How can a bike with a closed throttle body (or closed slide on a carb) rev up that high without air getting in somewhere else?

Your bike seized the first time due to an air leak.   They rebuilt it but didn't fix the air leak.   

I will grant you that the mechanics at motosports dealerships are horrible.   That isn't just KTM.  That's every powersports shop I've been to.  Real mechanics get their certifications and work at automotive dealerships.  What I see in powersports dealerships 90% are kids that really aren't qualified to work on anything.

You got a bum bike from the factory that most likely had a basic air leak.  Your dealership failed to properly diagnose it.   That totally sucks and I understand why you'd be so angry about it.   

Doc

 

I can see why you'd find that conclusion. If there had been an air leak from the factory, Id have noticed it immediately. 

At one point my fuel pump was failing as well. 

And to be fair- with it being a brand new bike, I never attempted to even look at it myself.

And you're spot-on about dealer techs. 

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17 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

 

That's an air leak... When you close the throttle body the only way it revs up like that is if air is getting in somewhere else.   You'd have probably had the same issue with a carb on the bike.   Did you ever do a leak-down test?

This is a great example of everyone trying to blame TPI for all issues.   

Doc

Yep, because there is no chance that drilling 2 holes in the transfer ports to plug in injectors could ever be a leak source. 🤣

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3 minutes ago, Hammy. said:

This was basically my experience...I ended up just trading it away. Just completely over it after 5 months of grief, and very little riding.

@Doc_d after that last problem, they were trying to explain the mapping issue they couldn't sort. No air leak.

This was AFTER I got it back from it seizing up in my driveway. The dealer "let" me take these pics after they tore to down.


We can try to argue about the cause ad nausea.  I will say that in my 40 years of riding an racing 2-strokes (bikes, karts and snowmobile engines in SCCA formula cars) that anytime you see a 2-stroke with a closed slide reving that high you should be looking for air leaks.  That's 2-stroke 101 right there.

But let's even say that was somehow directly related to TPI.  You got a bum bike.  You can get a bum carb'd bike too.   Trying to say that fuel injection is a lost cause because you were unfortunate and got a bum bike is just an emotional response.   I'm not discounting the fact it was a terrible situation for you.  But I don't think it's anything that is inherent to fuel injection as a whole.  If you were one of the guys that got a Beta that ate it's main bearings would you be saying all 2-strokes suck?  

Doc

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5 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Go to the site where actual KTM owners share their experiences with TPI and I find it a solid platform to gain real world information from a wide variety of owners.

Yep, because all the former owner's with bad experience don't go to that sight anymore, they moved onto something else, not like you.😉

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What I will say is this-

During that 5 month period trying to get that thing sorted, and the dealer not knowing what else to do, I was put in touch with regional and national sales reps as well as tech guys from other parts of the US as well as Europe. And KTM/Husq...and my frustrations were validated by everyone involved. I was one of thousands.

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2 minutes ago, Doc_d said:

If you were one of the guys that got a Beta that ate it's main bearings would you be saying all 2-strokes suck?  

I have always been against main bearings.😁

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3 minutes ago, Doc_d said:


We can try to argue about the cause ad nausea.  I will say that in my 40 years of riding an racing 2-strokes (bikes, karts and snowmobile engines in SCCA formula cars) that anytime you see a 2-stroke with a closed slide reving that high you should be looking for air leaks.  That's 2-stroke 101 right there.

But let's even say that was somehow directly related to TPI.  You got a bum bike.  You can get a bum carb'd bike too.   Trying to say that fuel injection is a lost cause because you were unfortunate and got a bum bike is just an emotional response.   I'm not discounting the fact it was a terrible situation for you.  But I don't think it's anything that is inherent to fuel injection as a whole.  If you were one of the guys that got a Beta that ate it's main bearings would you be saying all 2-strokes suck?  

Doc

I don't disagree.

And Ive ridden/owned/raced two strokes for a very long time as well. I raced TZ and RS 250's for over a decade. At the professional level as well. And no one worked on my bikes but me... So I know the symptoms of an air leak. 

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9 minutes ago, Hammy. said:

after that last problem, they were trying to explain the mapping issue they couldn't sort.

Hammy, that sounds like a terrible experience with a brand new bike, and I can't imagine how frustrated I'd be if I were in your shoes. I definitely sympathize. 

Unfortunately, it sounds like you had completely incompetent techs at your dealership because that problem you liked had absolutely nothing to do with "mapping". 

The one huge issue with any new technology when it's released from any manufacturer is that it's essential to find the right dealer to purchase from. 

I've been following the new 2020 Yamaha YZ250FX, and there's a ECU problem that's causing hard starting and fouled plugs, on a 4-stroke, no less! Yamaha normally has thorough R&D, and if anything, had over-the-top quality control. But, they messed this up and are dragging their feet, not wanting to admit a manufacturing fault. Some clueless dealers are not able to help guys with their brand new bikes and even going so far as to say the valves need to adjusted on a bike with under 10 hrs! 

The point being, issues happen and, especially with new technologies, it's imperritve to find a solid dealer who will support the customer and have their back. 

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12 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

Yep, because all the former owner's with bad experience don't go to that sight anymore, they moved onto something else, not like you.😉

Actually, if you go there, you can read those who have shared their problems and issues as well. 

It's a great site with a lot of logic and common sense where riders are interested in sharing information to help fellow riders and do it with mature adult dialogue.  Kinda the opposite of here.😏

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35 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Actually, if you go there, you can read those who have shared their problems and issues as well. 

It's a great site with a lot of logic and common sense where riders are interested in sharing information to help fellow riders and do it with mature adult dialogue.  Kinda the opposite of here.😏

I have been a member since I had my '99 and Shane Watts was the man and won races on just about every model KTM made.

Interesting about the Yamaha's, there is also a bunch of them puking timing chains and grenading the engines. 12 hours service intervals on piston and timing chain seems a bit excessive, on a bike with no warranty. Damn shame since people like yourself love them, they perform very well until they don't.

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1 hour ago, firffighter said:

For the majority of owners, TPI has been solid and reliable. There have been some growing pains, no doubt. 

I've been a member on the KTM forum longer than I've been a member here (13 years). If you go over to the KTM site you will find the vast majority of TPI owners are very satisfied with their bikes. Many there have been lifelong KTM owners and are thoroughly satisfied with the TPI's coming off of decades of riding the carbed KTM's. 

Like others here, I thoroughly enjoy the tuning aspect of the carb. I'm one of those nutcases that will go take two to three needles and a handful of jets and spend the day testing and fine-tuning my carb. I enjoy the process of finding the subtle differences and power delivery changes when making carb modifications.

When FI 2-Strokes get to the point where they can be fine tuned and all the kinks have been fully worked out, I'll be a buyer. Right now the only aspect I don't like about the TPI is the lack of ability to tune. I'm not concerned about the reliability or durability of a TPI if you look at the many TPI owners who now have hundreds of hours on their bikes riding  a variety of terrain and conditions, as well as the Hard Enduro guys who have been using TPI for the past couple of years with much success. 

 

 

You can tune it if you wish, you just have to buy an 800 dollar Ecu. 

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21 hours ago, MarantzManiac said:

at what cost per unit? even a ballpark number would be helpful!

Ballpark would be:

10k msrp(9999 if it makes you feel better)

850 or so freight and setup.

reg fees and sales tax(6-9% depending)

so most likely around 11,500-12k ish OTD

 

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While all you guys argue over carbs and efi, I am sitting here waiting for gas turbines to be used in dirt bikes. Chain life will be AMAZING!!!!!!

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1 minute ago, RawbW said:

You can tune it if you wish, you just have to buy an 800 dollar Ecu. 

Well you could go the piggyback route and it's more like $200.  But if I felt the need to tune I'd go with the full blown GET.    In fact I completely intended on getting a GET ECU when I ordered my TPI bike.   I was very surprised that I felt zero need to mess with it.  It runs really well right out of the box.

With that said, I believe the 2020 USA spec TPI bikes are being tuned from the factory like "closed course" bikes.   I don't think they are trying to meet any emission spec currently in the US.  It's not like my XCF-W or an EXC-F that do have to meet tight EPA specs and came extremely lean from the factory.   I do think in future years KTM may have to target specific emissions requirements in the USA and then it'll be like the EXC-F or XCF-Ws were you basically have to buy a tuner to get it to run the way the engineers intended.

Doc

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2 minutes ago, RawbW said:

You can tune it if you wish, you just have to buy an 800 dollar Ecu. 

Exactly. The GET ecu is $899! 

When FI 2-strokes catch up and the stock ECU is tunable, then I'm interested. 

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Just now, Doc_d said:

With that said, I believe the 2020 USA spec TPI bikes are being tuned from the factory like "closed course" bikes.   I don't think they are trying to meet any emission spec currently in the US. 

That may be, and if so I have to wonder if there will be a massive recall in the future like VW/Audi/Porsche had to deal with. 

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Just now, firffighter said:

Exactly. The GET ecu is $899! 

When FI 2-strokes catch up and the stock ECU is tunable, then I'm interested. 

KTM doesn’t like people fiddling with that stuff. Maybe another MFR would will be the one to let you play with it. Yamaha seems keen with their 4ts like that, but they don’t change anything at all on yz two strokes so I doubt it.

For some diagnosis, you can connect a regular OBD-2 scan tool to it with the right adapter cord but that’s pretty limited. Ktm won’t sell an xc2 tool to the public. Probably wouldn’t need it.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

I have been a member since I had my '99 and Shane Watts was the man and won races on just about every model KTM made.

Interesting about the Yamaha's, there is also a bunch of them puking timing chains and grenading the engines. 12 hours service intervals on piston and timing chain seems a bit excessive, on a bike with no warranty. Damn shame since people like yourself love them, they perform very well until they don't.

Haha, your sourcing your Yamaha information from the same  flat brimmed bros that just put out that 450 "Enduro" shootout. Really solid crew, who regard fork stickers as a vital portion of the review criteria :banghead: 

I'll rely on Obermeyer, Ben Grabham, Geoff Ballard, as my sources, you can keep yours if you like.

1771492525_ObviouslyBroHat.jpg.a02e99204a03da7f30e2649de035cdc8.jpg

Edited by firffighter
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You all saw this posted by TT less than one hour ago.Empirical proof that web sites still use carbs over fi.

Screen Shot 2020-03-26 at 10.38.37 AM.png

Screen Shot 2020-03-26 at 10.38.37 AM.png

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