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Legit innovation in motorcycle engine oils?

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12 minutes ago, EarthCruzn said:

Not companies many do get involved................ most just think of the end bottom line.

Especially in notorious forum oil topics! Brave! 😉 At least in the powersports segment, many work in it for the lifestyle, not just the money. Plenty of soul sucking ways to make a lot of money, but hard to do for long.

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I don't know the first thing about oil and I don't want to know.

I have used Maxima since they started because Ron Lechien actually abused drugs and alcohol more than me.

And we're both still alive (sorta).

And my bikes always shifted noticeably  better when I used Maxima.

I use Rotella in my lawn mower.

 

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On 4/23/2020 at 11:51 AM, Mike@MaximaUSA said:

Thanks for the great feedback @Sacrifice! Please let us know how it performs for you over the drain and thank you for the business! We really appreciate it!

@NORTY it's definitely a crazy time for oil and the world in general. Hopefully we can get it turned around soon.

I don't think too much delving will be required, as you and I were talking about the exact same thing! Parasitic losses are essentially anything that consumes engine output and prevents the engine from achieving its ultimate goal of transferring usable power to the wheels. The oil pump is of course part of these losses and in modern hardware typically only constitutes 0.5% or less of total lost output (or torque). Compared to the 10% or more lost to friction, this is a negligible value, hence why decreasing frictional losses is how the most benefit to power and efficiency can be realized from the oil. Further, if we wanted to improve the small losses to the oil pump through the engine oil, we'd have to significantly decrease the viscosity of the oil to see any improvement, but this then brings it's own potential problem with loss of durability and we can't very well go as far as to drop the viscosity grade, since that is determined by the OEM or engine builder. 

But, for the sake of argument, let's say our 2.5% gain in power is repeatable, which we believe it is based on other dyno testing and also through separate engine friction testing using electrically driven motors, which is a nice, repeatable method because it eliminates any variability introduced through combustion. Using the aforementioned 10% as the industry-recognized value for frictional losses (doesn't hurt that it's a nice round number either), this is essentially a 25% improvement in what losses we can influence with the oil. If we were to take that same 25% improvement value and apply it to the oil pump losses, which to achieve would again require drastic viscosity reductions, we'd still only recognize a 0.125% improvement, negligible in the grand scheme and certainly not worth sacrificing the durability afforded by a more viscous oil. 

Thanks again for the feedback and interesting discussions! 

I have a gallon of your Premium4 (sku#359128) sitting around that I ordered a few weeks ago. Is there anyway to tell on the packaging if it has the PEAC package you are talking about?

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Arctic Pride said:

this is calling Project Farm on YT

Great channel, and great dude all around who actually engages with his viewers. Not enough people like him on YT TBH. 

Edited by DuFF90INF
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Tell Esther to use a good quality brand name oil with the right viscosity in her bike. Change it at suggested Intervals and ride 🙂. Engines are designed to run and wear 🙂, go have fun. 

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My 350xcf manual calls for 10-50 / 10-60...I ran out and switched to the Rotella T6 15-40 I run in my wife’s KLX 140 and 2 hours later pushed home with blown top end (dropped exhaust valve). Not Rotella problem, but a weight problem...or maybe coincidence.

My opinion - if you can get the proper weight, give an oil a try. It’s not that long until you change it. This new Maxima is now on my list - after the Amsoil dirt I just decided to give a go. 

If there was a 50 Rotella, sure...but not running the right weight to save money: oh no no - never again.

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1 hour ago, SimsNT said:

My 350xcf manual calls for 10-50 / 10-60...I ran out and switched to the Rotella T6 15-40 I run in my wife’s KLX 140 and 2 hours later pushed home with blown top end (dropped exhaust valve). Not Rotella problem, but a weight problem...or maybe coincidence.

My opinion - if you can get the proper weight, give an oil a try. It’s not that long until you change it. This new Maxima is now on my list - after the Amsoil dirt I just decided to give a go. 

If there was a 50 Rotella, sure...but not running the right weight to save money: oh no no - never again.

So wrong oil weight, Rotella, or Scamsoil did yer bike in? :confused:

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1 hour ago, SimsNT said:

My 350xcf manual calls for 10-50 / 10-60...I ran out and switched to the Rotella T6 15-40 I run in my wife’s KLX 140 and 2 hours later pushed home with blown top end (dropped exhaust valve). Not Rotella problem, but a weight problem...or maybe coincidence.

My opinion - if you can get the proper weight, give an oil a try. It’s not that long until you change it. This new Maxima is now on my list - after the Amsoil dirt I just decided to give a go. 

If there was a 50 Rotella, sure...but not running the right weight to save money: oh no no - never again.

The T6 is a 5w40.  It shears down to a 30 or less pretty quick though.  In many applications designed for a 10w30 or 10w40, like a two stroke gearbox, this is no problem.

I think anything with a wide viscosity index like a 10w50 or 10w60 is going to be a group 4 base stock, a real synthetic oil.  Rotella T6 is a hydrocracked mineral base stock.  These oils perform comparably to real synthetics in many ways but they still require viscosity index improvers to maintain their high temp viscosity.  These molecules get chopped up in a shared sump and the oil invariably thins out.

A legit 10w50 or 10w60 with an ester or PAO base stock has a wide viscosity index by nature.  These oils are much less likely to shear down.  They are still susceptible to dilution and contamination but they don't get literally chopped up like a mineral oil. 

I think you may be right about the failure though, a dropped valve is not likely attributable to lubrication.  Viscosity loss would cause scoring on cam lobes and journals, spun bearings in the bottom end, maybe pitting or galling in the gearbox. 

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10 hours ago, turbo dan said:

The T6 is a 5w40.  It shears down to a 30 or less pretty quick though.  In many applications designed for a 10w30 or 10w40, like a two stroke gearbox, this is no problem.

I think anything with a wide viscosity index like a 10w50 or 10w60 is going to be a group 4 base stock, a real synthetic oil.  Rotella T6 is a hydrocracked mineral base stock.  These oils perform comparably to real synthetics in many ways but they still require viscosity index improvers to maintain their high temp viscosity.  These molecules get chopped up in a shared sump and the oil invariably thins out.

A legit 10w50 or 10w60 with an ester or PAO base stock has a wide viscosity index by nature.  These oils are much less likely to shear down.  They are still susceptible to dilution and contamination but they don't get literally chopped up like a mineral oil. 

I think you may be right about the failure though, a dropped valve is not likely attributable to lubrication.  Viscosity loss would cause scoring on cam lobes and journals, spun bearings in the bottom end, maybe pitting or galling in the gearbox. 

Wrong. The T6 in my bikes is not 5w, it's 15w-40 and JASO MA/MA2. You need to keep up. 

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12 hours ago, SimsNT said:

 

If there was a 50 Rotella, sure..

There is a straight 50wt. Rotella. 

Usually, it goes into planetary gears for Cat earth movers. (643's-657's)

Oh, the useless crap I remember...

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Doctor Shakalu Rotazion said:

Wrong. The T6 in my bikes is not 5w, it's 15w-40 and JASO MA/MA2. You need to keep up. 

I have never seen it until I googled it just now. 

I'm deeply sorry.

Apparently it was introduced in March of 2019.

Edited by turbo dan
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22 minutes ago, NORTY said:

There is a straight 50wt. Rotella. 

Usually, it goes into planetary gears for Cat earth movers. (643's-657's)

Oh, the useless crap I remember...

Cat had lots of equipment that used one oil for everything.

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ok fast question . i have 2018 ktm 500 , i run amsoil dirt 10-50 that i fond it shift way smoother than motorex . i may try maxima but what the oil weight off them . i think for my ktm 500 it will be 530 MX  but were the weight spect off that expensive oil ? . 

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On 4/24/2020 at 5:05 PM, DuFF90INF said:

I have a gallon of your Premium4 (sku#359128) sitting around that I ordered a few weeks ago. Is there anyway to tell on the packaging if it has the PEAC package you are talking about?

Near the top of the bottle, on the back and near the garbage can icon with the X through it, there is a batch code. Please email the batch code to tech@maximausa.com and reference this post. Our production team will go back to check whether this is the new formula or old. Thanks for being a Maxima customer!

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I really enjoyed this article. It makes sense to me based on the trends i have personally witnessed on the dyno over the years. I love looking deeper into these oil products.

Just a little about me. My Dad was involved in NASCAR in the 1960's with the de-stroked 427 FE Fords (396 CID) that won Riverside in 1968 and i grew up working in his shop and managing our racing teams.

I went on to work extensively with the air cooled Flat 8 and Flat 12 Porsche's and taught track driving for Lamborghini Academy and other sports car clubs. I served as Technical Advisor to Valley Oak Chapter of Porsche Club of America and - as recently as 2012 - ran the dyno and wrenched for FSR in Montclair,  California.

I'm not an oil scientist,  but let me just quantify my statements with some legitimate background in auto racing and aviation.

We had bikes, so we were always looking for newer or better oils, but also for our oval track cars. We were sending out race car oil to FAA analysis labs before we heard of Blackstone.

Back in the 1980's, our oil choices were limited. Most everything got Valvoline 20/50 Racing Oil. Top Fuel engines - Like Donovan's 417 - all used Kendall Nitro SAE 70 to combat nitro dilution, but totally different than our discussion topic.

In my Dad's 305cc Honda Scrambler, we started using 20w50 Aeroshell Aviation Oils, which we also used in my Porsche's.  We figured the protection was probably better than the other oils out on the market at the time, and the ashless dispersant nature of the oil didn't affect the wet clutch, but we knew there was parasitic loss from fluid viscosity that we accepted.

We foolishly built a 429 Ford once, around 1988, using Mobil 1 Synthetic 15w50 for assembly and break in, and the rings never seated, and back then, we really didn't understand why this happened. We just went back to old oils.

As an aircraft engine builder, we were also aware of major lawsuits against Mobil 1 for engine failures with their synthetic aviation oils, so we kinda became biased against synthetics.

Rotella was always popular because it was cheap and avaiable in bulk, and Mike made a very honest evaluation of Rotella. Its a heavy duty, low RPM, extended drain diesel engine oil. Although it does work, i believe there are better oils for higher specific output applications.

When using Rotella in air cooled Porsche's - having spray jets to cool the piston crowns - we noticed a tendency for Rotella to aerate on the race track and we stopped recommending it for that application, but that oil was literally used in everything else from wind machines to farm tractors with good results. Its a good oil for extended drain intervals or dirty environments. 

However, i have always thought there was a better oil.

Several years ago, through testing with Blackstone, i discovered two great synthetic oils that outclassed all the other automotive oils for VOA's and UOA's - Rheinol Primus 5w40 and Liqui-Moly 10w60. I've used both with great results in my daily driver 4.6 Ford 3-Valve V8, now  with over 230,000 miles and no consumption between 10,000 mile OCI's, but that's not a shared sump, wet clutch application either.

On my 1982 Honda XR500R, I've been looking hard at motorcycle-specific synthetics, so i was glad to read this writeup by @Mike@MaximaUSA

I'm really liking the principles behind this Maxima PEAC formulation, especially with the classes of additives that are being used and how each is being sought for a particular property.

The power increase claimed is believable and i have seen 1,200 horse 2JZ Toyotas pick up HP and TQ on the dyno from just a reduction in viscosity.

I think we must evaluate this new Maxima oil as a complete lubricant package. HP increase tells you the science behind the formulation is working, as opposed to just a hollow marketing claim about power gains.

I'm really excited to try it.

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