Hard as Hell Magura Clutch pull

[sheath]

On 5/21/2020 at 1:21 PM, JudeM said:

Gentlemen, All of your feedback is really appreciated and helpful to us, so thank you!

I would like to add a few points to the discussion about Magura and Magura quality (full disclosure- I am an employee.) We have worked hard as a manufacturer to be a long time vender to KTM and legitimate consideration spec to Brembo for Husky. Husky's (and KTM) product testing regimen is rigorous to say the least and approval takes years.

I understand the engine slave clutch seal has been a massive head ache for some, Apologies! We at Magura USA have tried to cover the calls and replacement parts quickly and efficiently so again apologies for delays with response and/or shipping. I would ask and hope you understand there is always a lot more to the story that what is on surface. Know we have been a continuous hydraulic clutch vendor to KTM since pre 2000 and earned that recurring spec in  part due to our reputation for quality and dependability. It could be noted that Magura was the ONLY hydraulic off-road clutch actuation option for many years and its reputation for solid dependability as helping convince dirt bike riders hydraulic clutch acceptance. 

That is great if you aren't the one sitting at the bottom of a hole in a canyon. 

If there is another failure of a clutch component on my bike I'll switch it over to Brembo and be done. I've had exceptional luck with Brembo.  I know no manufacture is perfect, but the volume of issues with this system on the Husky's should have been resolved two years ago. 

I will not buy another product with a Magura subsystem on it. I have lost confidence in Husqvarna and Magura. 

First time shame on the manufacture.  Second time, shame on me.  That won't happen.

[zibbit u2]

Rekluse make a nice slave ?

When I bought my new 690 I was saddened to find out that the KTM had a Magura slave on it.. So, before I even took delivery I had a replacement slave on order.. haha

[CO_RDR]

On 5/21/2020 at 3:27 PM, DPete said:

With all due respect, if there has been so much testing why are there so many slave failures, mine went 200 miles on a new Husq 450 and the lever just collapsed. I plunked out over $200 for a Rekluse slave to have some confidence in the machine. Not what one would expect from a $10K + motorcycle.

JudeM is correct, there's a HUGE amount of testing that goes into products before they hit the shelves. Magura components included.  These parts are spec'd by engineers.

Now...

They probably shipped with those OEM spec'd parts to begin with, THEN, somebody (bean counter?) decided that they could save- who knows how much money- by changing to different parts that were NOT a part of the original spec, and therefore, tested by you and me.

 

[socalluke]

On 5/19/2020 at 3:10 PM, NORTY said:

If the friction zone is wider than it used to be, then something is certainly going on with your system. Since you've addressed the lever/M/C & hyd. line/slave, then it's time to see what's going on with the push rod/clutch spring pressures/clutch basket/hat. 

Unless you're running an extremely viscous fluid as hyd. fluid, this is usually a "standardized" product. (Much like brake fluid.) 

Has your clutch had "stronger" springs installed? The plate stack height changed? 

As a last resort, it would be easy to remove your M/C cap and replace the ISO 4 fluid, with an ISO 460 or 680. Could you have had a vandal mess with your system? (Not that vandals know anything about more viscous hyd. oils, but still.)

Went camping and riding....the clutch began to massively slip. Oil smelled pretty burnt. So I stopped riding it.

When I got home and checked things out, yep the oil smelled burnt. Drained it, looked at the clutch plates and they measured within spec and everything looked good. Master Cylinder fluid is full (but a lot of dust around the slave cylinder....almost like a leak in that area.....)

Put fresh oil in and now, even with stock Magura lever adjusted all the way out, it is back to creeping forward when you put it in gear?

Is/did the master or slave cylinder go out?

On the clutch spring retainer.... I noticed this was on the "II" setting, so that is where I put it back to. What does this adjust?

[Tye Durden]

5 hours ago, socalluke said:

Went camping and riding....the clutch began to massively slip. Oil smelled pretty burnt. So I stopped riding it.

When I got home and checked things out, yep the oil smelled burnt. Drained it, looked at the clutch plates and they measured within spec and everything looked good. Master Cylinder fluid is full (but a lot of dust around the slave cylinder....almost like a leak in that area.....)

Put fresh oil in and now, even with stock Magura lever adjusted all the way out, it is back to creeping forward when you put it in gear?

Is/did the master or slave cylinder go out?

On the clutch spring retainer.... I noticed this was on the "II" setting, so that is where I put it back to. What does this adjust?

Ok so just take all this as a maybe since I am not the master mechanic, but hopefully someone that knows exactly what is up will chime in.  I think your clutch plates could still be in spec thickness-wise but get glazed, so they end up slipping more, then burning the oil. 

My FX, if I remember correctly was even inching a bit with new clutch plates when cold, but that goes down/away once the bike/oil warmed up. I sort of forgot about it after I changed the plates it was definitely worse before that.

The I,II,III is to adjust the spring washer distortion / aka tension on the clutch pack. See drawing for an FX 450. You are supposed to start at I and measure. I am pretty sure factory setting is just II and they leave it at that.  I would bet any KTM/Husky with this clutch has the same spring washer distortion spec.

[socalluke]

So let's say the clutch lever is adjusted all the way but hitting the bar, still creeps....

1. it would need less tension correct. (so the plates could more easily seperate and fully disengage? and

2. would that be I or III

(While slipping plates or thin plates would need more tension??

 

[Tye Durden]

2 minutes ago, socalluke said:

So let's say the clutch lever is adjusted all the way but hitting the bar, still creeps....

1. it would need less tension correct. (so the plates could more easily seperate and fully disengage? and

2. would that be I or III

(While slipping plates or thin plates would need more tension??

 

I, II, or III setting is independent of your scenario IMO (in that I would make sure they are set up in spec first, and see if you are still having the issue, but don't keep adjusting to see if that fixes it). B/C that is simply the spec for properly installing the clutch spring washer. I have no idea what the service interval for that is, but maybe it's lifetime so I would rule that out as an adjustment to fix your problem, just make sure it measures out to spec and adjust as necessary first.

I found, for what ever reason bleeding this Magura SOB was way more difficult than bleeding my Brembo on my KTM was, or maybe that is some sort of confirmation bias but I'd also make sure you have bled the clutch line real well and have fresh fluid in there. Little things like that actually have a large impact on actuating your clutch properly. If all the above is done and you still have an issue I would see what others chime in with, but if you're not losing fluid out the master (via no visible leaks-so through the slave into the crankcase) then I don't think you have a bad slave (BICBW) and maybe time for new clutch plates. 

[weantright]

7 hours ago, socalluke said:

So let's say the clutch lever is adjusted all the way but hitting the bar, still creeps....

1. it would need less tension correct. (so the plates could more easily seperate and fully disengage? and

2. would that be I or III

(While slipping plates or thin plates would need more tension??

 

If you are pulling the lever in and the clutch is not disengaging then your MC is not holding pressure to the slave. OR the slave is not holding pressure the MC is building and this is checked by fluid level in the MC. IF your fluid level goes missing and there is no visible leak around the MC cap then your slave o-ring is bad. If your bolts on the slave loosens then you will begin to sweat oil and will show when riding in dusty conditions. This is motor oil and not clutch fluid and is NOT the issue you have. I suggest a OEM rebuild of the MC or a Brembo 9mm MC as a replacement. This should fix your issue.

I, II, III is only for manufacturing tolerances stack up and stock position is II. Go to Rekluse site and read set-up on the CX clutches, this will be explained in detail. In theory as the fibers wear you could adjust this spring to keep proper gap so you don't create slip. Moving to setting I can extend fiber life when at min spec. These spring settings does very little for lever pull so no need to play with it for this reason. 

[CO_RDR]

On 5/8/2020 at 11:01 AM, HansLanda said:

I recommend the Midwest Mountain Engineering lever, it's a softer pull for sure.

Thanks for the recommend!  It's installed and dialed.  Pull seems quite a bit easier.  Multiple adjustment points seems to be the ticket...

[weantright]

48 minutes ago, CO_RDR said:

Thanks for the recommend!  It's installed and dialed.  Pull seems quite a bit easier.  Multiple adjustment points seems to be the ticket...

I have their lever on all my bikes for the adjustable reach. I also like the wider shorter lever.

[socalluke]

2 hours ago, weantright said:

If you are pulling the lever in and the clutch is not disengaging then your MC is not holding pressure to the slave. OR the slave is not holding pressure the MC is building and this is checked by fluid level in the MC. IF your fluid level goes missing and there is no visible leak around the MC cap then your slave o-ring is bad. If your bolts on the slave loosens then you will begin to sweat oil and will show when riding in dusty conditions. This is motor oil and not clutch fluid and is NOT the issue you have. I suggest a OEM rebuild of the MC or a Brembo 9mm MC as a replacement. This should fix your issue.

I, II, III is only for manufacturing tolerances stack up and stock position is II. Go to Rekluse site and read set-up on the CX clutches, this will be explained in detail. In theory as the fibers wear you could adjust this spring to keep proper gap so you don't create slip. Moving to setting I can extend fiber life when at min spec. These spring settings does very little for lever pull so no need to play with it for this reason. 

Thanks W! The oil sweating had me perplexed..... If I go Brembo MC replacment, will the hydraulic hose or just the fittings at the MC need to be replaced?  (I see there are different "clutchpipe" OEM part numbers for this hose on the 19 350xcf and 19 fx350)

 

[weantright]

Fitting on the MC is the same. Different part numbers come from length and slave configuration fitting depending on model.

[Tye Durden]

6 hours ago, socalluke said:

Thanks W! The oil sweating had me perplexed..... If I go Brembo MC replacment, will the hydraulic hose or just the fittings at the MC need to be replaced?  (I see there are different "clutchpipe" OEM part numbers for this hose on the 19 350xcf and 19 fx350)

 

Might be a good idea to order/buy from somewhere you can talk to a person that can pull the part and look at it and make sure it's what you need before you buy it. I am just saying that because the parts fiche for FX/FCs shows a banjo bolt bleeder at the slave end of the clutch pipe but it really is a direct line in with a separate bleeder valve coming out of the slave.  The FE fiche shows the pipe in with no banjo and no bleeder on the slave, but it is there.  So, sorta difficult to know exactly what you are going to get picture shows one thing, what is on the bike related to clutch, different.

[weantright]

1 hour ago, Tye Durden said:

Might be a good idea to order/buy from somewhere you can talk to a person that can pull the part and look at it and make sure it's what you need before you buy it. I am just saying that because the parts fiche for FX/FCs shows a banjo bolt bleeder at the slave end of the clutch pipe but it really is a direct line in with a separate bleeder valve coming out of the slave.  The FE fiche shows the pipe in with no banjo and no bleeder on the slave, but it is there.  So, sorta difficult to know exactly what you are going to get picture shows one thing, what is on the bike related to clutch, different.

Correct but just a MC upgrade is a drop in change. Both slaves have bleeders but different attachments. 

[socalluke]

On 5/27/2020 at 4:29 PM, weantright said:

Correct but just a MC upgrade is a drop in change. Both slaves have bleeders but different attachments. 

With RM M/C shipping delays...called around to the local dealers (turns out any dealer can see inventory at all the other dealers.) Found a Magura MC rebuild kit available yesterday and should get it today. Ironically the complete Brembo MC/lever assembly are on back order, till August if I remember right. 

 

[Tye Durden]

On 5/27/2020 at 4:29 PM, weantright said:

Correct but just a MC upgrade is a drop in change. Both slaves have bleeders but different attachments. 

My 2014 XCW ktm 450 only had the banjo bolt bleeder. I am not completely up to speed on KTM engines but I know the FX/FC blocks are the MX engines and I assume current model FEs are updated/replacement blocks of that 2014 XCW block. Would be great to have a reference list somewhere of KTM engine history and nomenclature.  The FX/FC clutch pipe is the first time I have ran into parts fiches having completely different drawings than what is on the bike.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Tye Durden