Jump to content
Blizzo

200cc what engine do i have?

Recommended Posts

Ok guys, i know there are some bloody clever chaps on here, so hopefully someone can help me with the pickle im in.

I recently brought a ct185 that had "had an XR200 engine" put in it. i brought it sight unseen just for the engine. im building a little 200cc adventure bike for small bike rides with my mates. anyway i wanted an XR200 specifically for being the faster of the 200s.

I got the bike home and had a look at it and was gravely dissapointed that it appears its not an XR200 at all. Ill attach some photos below but will explain everything first in case some cant see the photos.

First up, the Engine number on the case is L185SE-5301042, this tells me that the bottom end / cases are from a 1979 XL185, as the L185 designation was only on the 1975 XLs and then they went to the M0 designation.

The stamp on the carb is PD 61BAVD - this looks like its an XL200R carb, it has the choke handle designed for a cable to operate it.

The CC stamp on the cylinder is 195cc - either an XL/XR/ATC 200 cyl

The other funny this is the cylinder and left had sidecover (flywheel cover) have remnants of an orignal black paint, i know the 84/85 XL200R came with a black engine, so this would make sense as it would match the carb.

The head has no remnants of black paint, so could potentially be xr200r or something different all together.

This is a real pick and mix engine by the looks. I was pretty gutted that the bottom end wasnt XR200 as i wanted the 6 speed for better open road economy, but looking at the ratios the XL185S 5th gear is the same ratio as the XR200R 6th, and apparently the 5 speed trans is stronger, so thats not a bad thing, just has a big jump from 1st to 2nd.

Im going to pull the top end off soon, as it needs new rings anyway. i might as well go 1mm over to make it nice and fresh and stick an XR200 piston in it, if it is an XL200 piston im assuming the XR200 piston will go straight in and give me higher compression. from what i can tell the only other difference is the cam. Other than a degree wheel / DTI is there anyway i can tell what cam i have, does someone have some side profile photos of the lobes on an XL200r cam and XR200r cam so i can tell?

Any other input or advise would be greatly appreciated. 

Cheers

Blake - New Zealand

9goxkLV.jpg

7f59x6c.jpg

mgnJ1tQ.jpg

Dd47yu3.jpg

eRuJGPh.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 81-83 200r engines were black as well.

The stator does look like an XL unit.  The XR version had less wires.

The PD 61 carb is an XL carb from Chucks list.

This whole family of engines shares basic architecture, so 200r parts will work.  Throw in a 12/1 wiesco piston if want.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

XL cams were a lot milder than the XRs.

XR cams are the most aggressive of all the 2 valve motors.

XLs were usually 9:1 compression, XRs were 10:1

XL alternator will have power for lights.

Interesting mix of parts, but Honda often does that and I only get to see the NA bikes:
The "195cc" cylinder were used on the early XR200, XR200R, and XL200R models.
NA didn't get a XL200 model, just the XL125/185 models, except for the 83-84 XL200R which was based on the 81-83 XR200R. The 185 cylinders had "180cc".

If you search part numbers for your region you'll be better able to id parts as OEM or swapped. Honda marks all parts but sometimes the marks seem obscure like on cylinders the only marks are the displacement code. Other parts will have the middle three digits of the part number on them. e.g. "KA2", "446", "427", etc.  Sometimes the only marks are casting marks or time/date marks, the later are to ID production batches but don't mean much to us. For gears you get to count teeth and research the part descriptions.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok this is the piston that was in it, can anyone ID it?

ygWtqEl.jpg

and this is the cam lobe profile, i cant see any defining stamps or numbers on the cam, would anyone know what this cam is based on the profile?

noFhg0d.jpg

The bearing races on the head / rocker cover dont look to bad, cyl will come up good with a hone. cam has some lobe wear though which is a shame, so might be best to get a new cam anyway.

i58ORiB.jpg

330KK3n.jpg

NZXCXzy.jpg

b7qjbUP.jpg

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only way I know to ID Honda cam profiles is with a degree wheel and dial indicator. Or by measuring the lobe height, but you need the specs from a Honda Service manual. Post up the lobe height and maybe we can at least eliminate some possibles. Most aftermarket cams will have a part number and/or mfg marks. Rocker arms have a ratio so be careful about whether the lift specs are cam or valve.

Most of the heads have an "E' number.
What are those marks on the end of the cam?

You can check the cylinder for taper by measuring the end gap of the ring at various locations in the cylinder, use the piston to square it in the bore and measure the gap with feeler gauges. The taper, or wear,  will be 1/3 the change in ring end gap from tightest.  The circumference of a circle is diameter time pie, pie is 3.14 so I divide the change in ring gap by 3 to indicate the change in diameter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those marks on the end of the cam look like some kind of punch mark, bugger knows what for.

cam lobe height is 8mm.

piston diameter is 65.5mm

does anyone have any horror stories about the Chinese (AliExpress) 12:1 piston kits?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to keep you busy you can do two other quick checks for wear:

Insert the pin into the rod until it is flush with the other side.  Wiggle the exposed end of the pin up/down and side to side, if up/down is more than side to side the small end is worn.

Hold crank in one hand by the rod.  Smartly smack the bottom of the crank with the palm of your other hand.  If you feel any sharpness in the hand holding the rod the big end bearing is worn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And that ruins my day haha.

small end is worn, quite a bit of play there 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I just re-read your instructions there chuck, the small end play in the wrist pin is considerable less than the side by side play in the conrod at the little end. I’d say maybe 15-20% of the conrod play, and the conrod play seems in line with any other bike I have spannerd on. 
 

bore taper is dead square too which is nice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hi Blizzo,

You've got a decent project to freshen-up your engine.I was looking at the some of your pics of the top-end parts.The pic where you show the '1 D' mark on the cylinder plus another pic of the inside of the liner.. my eyes and those pics could be playing tricks.Please double-check your lower cylinder liner for a crack.

I have a mix of different parts on my engine(81' XL125S cases with stock 6 speed trans,XL185 crank,XR200 top end)and if your engine has the stock XL185 5-speed trans and you prefer a six speed, you can swap-in the six speed trans from certain years of XL125S which are six.The USA import XL125S models have six speeds starting in 1979' and on up.

                                                                                         welcome to the forum,Bill

Edited by grcamna5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

roger that, really appreciate all this help chaps.

Im thinking ill just look out for an XR200r engine for a reasonable price to use as a base for the build. its the easiest way with wanting a 6 speed trans.

the Mark in the cylinder isnt a crack, just some vertical marks, but not scratches, the cyl is actually in really good condition and a quick hone will see it like new again, so i wont have to spend $130 getting that bored.

One question of wear i have is in the left side cam journal, this engine looked much better than the last buggered one i had. this morning i screwed the rocker cover down tight to the head and popped the cam in to see if there was any play, there is zero side to side play but there is a very small amount of vertical play? is this normal / expected / alright to shall this head and rocker cover go into the "probably wont use" parts bin also.

I pulled the stator cover off today, this is porbably the only useful thing about this engine. i need lights on the bike its going in so have a lighting circuit is great. the stator has "4c" stamped on it, can anyone ID it? it has the white/yellow lighting output wires on it also. Will this flywheel / stator / cover bolt straight on to an xr200R bottom end to give me a lighting circuit?

11Jlm2j.jpg

zAzieSS.jpg

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Blizzo said:

roger that, really appreciate all this help chaps.

Im thinking ill just look out for an XR200r engine for a reasonable price to use as a base for the build. its the easiest way with wanting a 6 speed trans.

the Mark in the cylinder isnt a crack, just some vertical marks, but not scratches, the cyl is actually in really good condition and a quick hone will see it like new again, so i wont have to spend $130 getting that bored.

One question of wear i have is in the left side cam journal, this engine looked much better than the last buggered one i had. this morning i screwed the rocker cover down tight to the head and popped the cam in to see if there was any play, there is zero side to side play but there is a very small amount of vertical play? is this normal / expected / alright to shall this head and rocker cover go into the "probably wont use" parts bin also.

I pulled the stator cover off today, this is porbably the only useful thing about this engine. i need lights on the bike its going in so have a lighting circuit is great. the stator has "4c" stamped on it, can anyone ID it? it has the white/yellow lighting output wires on it also. Will this flywheel / stator / cover bolt straight on to an xr200R bottom end to give me a lighting circuit?

11Jlm2j.jpg

zAzieSS.jpg

Cheers

OK Blizzo, I'm glad to hear that your cylinder liner is without a crack running vertically up one side,which is what I had thought it was.How much up and down movement with the camshaft inside it's Big-end(sprocket side)bearing do you see it having ?

That stator has had a number of 'heat cycles' in it's life.I think the good news is(imo)that the way it's mounted with the 3 screws inside that stator cover and the plug,it looks like an XL200R stator to me which has the most output in watts of most of the other 185/200 series stators.I hope the flywheel and wiring harness,CDi unit and regulators all correspond correctly to match that stator.I have been collecting XL200R stator and charging system,wiring harness parts(KG1 center code)for my bike and the last item that I still haven't found is the stator cover.I will find it eventually.Those parts will bolt straight onto an XR200/R engine.

Edited by grcamna5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, grcamna5 said:

OK Blizzo, I'm glad to hear that your cylinder liner is without a crack running vertically up one side,which is what I had thought it was.

That stator has had a number of 'heat cycles' in it's life.I think the good news is(imo)that the way it's mounted with the 3 screws inside that stator cover and the plug,it looks like an XL200R stator to me which has the most output in watts of most of the other 185/200 series stators.I hope the flywheel and wiring harness,CDi unit and regulators all correspond correctly to match that stator.I have been collecting XL200R stator and charging system,wiring harness parts(KG1 center code)for my bike and the last item that I still haven't found is the stator cover.I will find it eventually.

well that is some good news. The stator cover has remnants of factory black paint so that would also support the suggestion of an XL200R stator, and the carb on this engine was a PD61A which is XL200R, so someone has made a bit of a parts bin special.

The CDI that this bike was using (CT185) (and running, i took it for a wee ride and it went alright other than being smokey) has both "CF420" and "KE4" printed on it, and is a "shindengen" CDI. I also have an XR200R wiring loom here and the CDI wires are the same (plug slightly different) and this XR200R cdi has a small sticker on the plug which reads "KTO CF486A"

Will i be able to use the XR200R CDI with this XL200R stator?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Blizzo said:

well that is some good news. The stator cover has remnants of factory black paint so that would also support the suggestion of an XL200R stator, and the carb on this engine was a PD61A which is XL200R, so someone has made a bit of a parts bin special.

The CDI that this bike was using (CT185) (and running, i took it for a wee ride and it went alright other than being smokey) has both "CF420" and "KE4" printed on it, and is a "shindengen" CDI. I also have an XR200R wiring loom here and the CDI wires are the same (plug slightly different) and this XR200R cdi has a small sticker on the plug which reads "KTO CF486A"

Will i be able to use the XR200R CDI with this XL200R stator?

Blake,

I haven't tried using a CDi from the XR200R on an XL200R stator,may be ok.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Blizzo said:

well that is some good news. The stator cover has remnants of factory black paint so that would also support the suggestion of an XL200R stator, and the carb on this engine was a PD61A which is XL200R, so someone has made a bit of a parts bin special.

The CDI that this bike was using (CT185) (and running, i took it for a wee ride and it went alright other than being smokey) has both "CF420" and "KE4" printed on it, and is a "shindengen" CDI. I also have an XR200R wiring loom here and the CDI wires are the same (plug slightly different) and this XR200R cdi has a small sticker on the plug which reads "KTO CF486A"

Will i be able to use the XR200R CDI with this XL200R stator?

"KT0" CDI module is 84+ XR200R, if it has the two connectors and 6 pins, it is 85+. However the 85 XR200R CDI module looks the same, has the KT0 marks and won't work because it is designed for the XR250R type of ignition system.

You can use the 86+ XR200R CDI module because it has no electronic advance, that is provided by the mechanical Advancer unit on the left end of the cam. The 85 XR200R CDI module has built in electronic advance curve, and I don't know the marks that will ID them.

Since the spark lead is controlled by the mechanical advance any XR200R CDI moule should work, it really depend on the connectors on the module and the wire harness. Other CDI modules will have an internal electronic advance and while looking the same should not be used.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blizzo where are you in NZ? I am in the south I have quite a few xr200 parts. Another high wear item to check is the splines on the countershaft if cheap aftermarket sprockets have been used they are often worn. Ditto the splines on the gear shift shaft, take a close look at them. As far as parts compatibility for different years this might be of use. You have to be careful when sourcing 2nd hand parts....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...