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E-Start and lighting issues related to stator?

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I have been having problems with the e-start and lighting on my 2005 crf450x. Going through the Cyclepedia manual and it looks kind of like the stator needs to be replaced (although I find the diagnostic parts of this manual lacking). I guess I just want to source some opinions before I spend  $100-$200 bucks and the time to replace the part. 

BACKGROUND: Basically started on a ride, stopped for lunch and then the e-start didn't work. Relay clicked but didn't turn over. Kick start worked fine. By the time I got home, the relay had stopped clicking altogether. The kick start continues to work just fine and the bike runs great. I have also now noticed that the lights don't work. 

Replaced the battery, e-start switch, replaced the relay, removed the clutch safety switch (soldered the wires together). Tried a battery directly to the starter, didn't have thick gauge wire or a big battery, but little wires on an old bike battery got it to unhappily turn over once or twice. 

Following along with Cyclepedia through the charging and starting diagnostic. I am not seeing any charging voltage, new lithium batt holds at 13.25v on or off or revving. I am not seeing battery voltage on the red/white wire going to the regulator/rectifier. The yellow, white and green wires are fine. I am not getting resistance on the blue wire coming from the alternator charging coil, the yellow wire is fine (manual says to replace stator if either of these are bad) Finally, at the starter relay, I am not seeing voltage at the yellow/red wire when the starter button is pressed (the manual doesn't say what to do if this test fails)

QUESTIONS: For the lights and charging issue, I can understand how the stator could be related. Why am I not seeing voltage getting to the starter relay or regulator/rectifier? How would having a bad stator cause the e-start to not work? And if the stator is bad why does the bike start first kick and run great? Can someone help explain this mystery to me? Should I just replace the stator and move on with my life or are there multiple problems here?

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6 hours ago, AZTay said:

I am not seeing battery voltage on the red/white wire going to the regulator/rectifier.

I don’t know if this is your only problem, but it definitely doesn’t sound right. I would troubleshoot this and find if there’s a broken wire in the harness or if a fuse is blown somewhere in that circuit. (If memory recalls, there’s a fuse in the starter relay module that can blow and cut the connection between the regulator and battery, 15A I believe). 
 

I recently had an electrical issue on my 450X where I wasn’t getting any voltage increase to the battery while running, also sat at around 13.2 no matter engine running or not, and regardless of RPM.

I replaced the regulator after confirming the regulator wires and still no charge. Decided to pull the trigger on a Baja Designs rewind and waiting for it to arrive back as I write this. 
 

What ohms do your stator wires show?

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<<I am not seeing battery voltage on the red/white wire going to the regulator/rectifier. >>

 +1 on the fuse/wiring.    The R/W wire on the rectifier goes back to the fuse.  This is the output from the regulator/rectifier that charges the battery.

<<And if the stator is bad why does the bike start first kick and run great? >>

 The stator is made up of multiple "coils".  Each coil can be wound over one or more poles in the stator.   There are three coils on the stator; one for Lighting/Charging, one for ignition, and one used for the ignition pulse generator.

 The first two are the ones that actually provide power (are considered to be the alternator).    The lighting / charging coil is also center tapped, which is how 45 watts is gotten for lighting, and 25 watts goes to the regulator/rectifier to get the DC.

 That's the W and Y wires coming off the stator.   W is one end of the coil, and Y is the center tap.  The other end of the coil is attached to ground.   The lighting runs between Y and ground.

 Green off the regulator/rectifier is ground.

 Make sure you can get battery voltage on the R/W wire before going any further.

Jim.

 

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21 hours ago, amcjen said:

I don’t know if this is your only problem, but it definitely doesn’t sound right. I would troubleshoot this and find if there’s a broken wire in the harness or if a fuse is blown somewhere in that circuit. (If memory recalls, there’s a fuse in the starter relay module that can blow and cut the connection between the regulator and battery, 15A I believe). 
 

I recently had an electrical issue on my 450X where I wasn’t getting any voltage increase to the battery while running, also sat at around 13.2 no matter engine running or not, and regardless of RPM.

I replaced the regulator after confirming the regulator wires and still no charge. Decided to pull the trigger on a Baja Designs rewind and waiting for it to arrive back as I write this. 
 

What ohms do your stator wires show?

The fuse at the starter relay is brand new and shows resistance, Also the relay tests as it should when hooked up to a battery on the bench.
 

As for stater wires resistance Y=1.6 B=OL

according to the book this indicates a bad stater. Which I would be ready to accept given my lighting and charging issues. But I still can’t figure out what is up with the E-start. 
 

let me know if that Baja designs stater works out looks like I could be in the market

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13 hours ago, Jim Dettman said:

<<I am not seeing battery voltage on the red/white wire going to the regulator/rectifier. >>

 +1 on the fuse/wiring.    The R/W wire on the rectifier goes back to the fuse.  This is the output from the regulator/rectifier that charges the battery.

<<And if the stator is bad why does the bike start first kick and run great? >>

 The stator is made up of multiple "coils".  Each coil can be wound over one or more poles in the stator.   There are three coils on the stator; one for Lighting/Charging, one for ignition, and one used for the ignition pulse generator.

 The first two are the ones that actually provide power (are considered to be the alternator).    The lighting / charging coil is also center tapped, which is how 45 watts is gotten for lighting, and 25 watts goes to the regulator/rectifier to get the DC.

 That's the W and Y wires coming off the stator.   W is one end of the coil, and Y is the center tap.  The other end of the coil is attached to ground.   The lighting runs between Y and ground.

 Green off the regulator/rectifier is ground.

 Make sure you can get battery voltage on the R/W wire before going any further.

Jim.

 

Fuse is good and I can’t seem to find a break in the system except for the blue wire coming from the alternator. I can accept a bad alternator for lighting and charging but I can’t wrap my brain around what that has to do with the electric start not working. 
 

Will keep plugging away at the wiring harness for brakes in the meantime

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It sounds like it could be stator , no charge to battery , battery runs down , you are unable to start a  bike with starter motor with discharged battery , try charging battery and see if elec start works after

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10 hours ago, AZTay said:

Fuse is good and I can’t seem to find a break in the system except for the blue wire coming from the alternator. I can accept a bad alternator for lighting and charging but I can’t wrap my brain around what that has to do with the electric start not working. 
 

Will keep plugging away at the wiring harness for brakes in the meantime

If the voltage on the starter circuit is <12v, the starter relay will not close and you'll get a no start.

Disconnect the plug at the starter relay and check:

1. That the green wire is good to ground.

2. That you have good connection on the R/W wire to the regulator/rectifier plug (unplug the regulator/rectifier).

I think what you are going to find is that you have a problem with the wiring somewhere.  

With everything connected and the battery installed and charged, you should find:

1. Battery voltage on the R/W wire at the regulator/rectifier plug.

2. If you press the starter button, you should have battery voltage on the Yellow/Red wire at the starter relay plug.  The other side of the relay goes to ground (green wire), which is what you checked above.

Do you have the wiring diagram by the way?

Jim.

Edited by Jim Dettman
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11 hours ago, Jim Dettman said:

If the voltage on the starter circuit is <12v, the starter relay will not close and you'll get a no start.

Disconnect the plug at the starter relay and check:

1. That the green wire is good to ground.

2. That you have good connection on the R/W wire to the regulator/rectifier plug (unplug the regulator/rectifier).

I think what you are going to find is that you have a problem with the wiring somewhere.  

With everything connected and the battery installed and charged, you should find:

1. Battery voltage on the R/W wire at the regulator/rectifier plug.

2. If you press the starter button, you should have battery voltage on the Yellow/Red wire at the starter relay plug.  The other side of the relay goes to ground (green wire), which is what you checked above.

Do you have the wiring diagram by the way?

Jim.

Ok, so i messed around today and got the e-start working...Traced all the wires I could following along with the Cyclepedia wiring diagram. Everything checked out. Decided to try the old relay for some reason, hooked it up and saw power at the red/white wire. Hit the start button and it fired right up. Battery is charging too. Guess the E-Bay "this relay is for your bike" thing was a lie, or at least it is wired differently. Still doesn't explain why it quit in the first place, must have been a loose connection like you thought

So that's one thing down. But the headlight still doesn't work, and the blue stator wire (exciter coil?) is still failing continuity test. If I understand correctly though, headlight power should come off the yellow wire, which passes a continuity test. I am not seeing a break in the wire from headlight to alternator plug and the bulb is good...

Is it possible that having a bad exciter coil would cause issues with the headlight? It seems more like that would cause running issues, which I don't have...

Edited by AZTay

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38 minutes ago, AZTay said:

So that's one thing down. But the headlight still doesn't work, and the blue stator wire (exciter coil?) is still failing continuity test. If I understand correctly though, headlight power should come off the yellow wire, which passes a continuity test. I am not seeing a break in the wire from headlight to alternator plug and the bulb is good...

 

 Yes, the headlight runs off the yellow wire out of the stator (ends up as blue at the headlight), other side is ground (green). On the headlight, check for continuity to ground at the headlight plug.  Also make sure the bulb is showing some resistance and not open.

 At the stator plug, check for continuity between the yellow wire and the blue wire at the headlight plug.

 On the stator side, you should have continuity from yellow to ground and from White to ground.  

 

Quote

Is it possible that having a bad exciter coil would cause issues with the headlight? It seems more like that would cause running issues, which I don't have...

No.   As you said, it would cause running issues.   

Quote

and the blue stator wire (exciter coil?) is still failing continuity test

 not sure what you are checking to.  Both the blue and black/red end up at the ignition control module.  There is no connection to ground.

Jim.

 

Edited by Jim Dettman

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1 hour ago, Jim Dettman said:

 not sure what you are checking to.  Both the blue and black/red end up at the ignition control module.  There is no connection to ground.

Jim.

 

The Cyclepedia manual has me testing resistance on the line coming from the stator, blue wire to a ground which is an Open Line (should show resistance according to them) and from Yellow to a ground which does give some resistance. I have found the diagnostic portions of this manual to be lacking in detail, so maybe this isn't a good test or the instructions are incomplete...

I will keep digging for a break on the headlight end of things, I hooked the bulb up directly to a battery and it turned on, I bet you are right though and there is some faulty connection somewhere, just a matter of finding it

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53 minutes ago, AZTay said:

The Cyclepedia manual has me testing resistance on the line coming from the stator, blue wire to a ground which is an Open Line (should show resistance according to them) and from Yellow to a ground which does give some resistance. I have found the diagnostic portions of this manual to be lacking in detail, so maybe this isn't a good test or the instructions are incomplete...

  Hum, well I would agree as long as the stator plug is disconnected. Neither the blue nor  black/red should show continuity to ground.   But with the connector connected, it may be able to reach ground via the CDI module.  I don't know if that should be the case or not.

  However as you said, the bike runs, so I'd just forget about anything you are seeing there.

 

Quote

I will keep digging for a break on the headlight end of things, I hooked the bulb up directly to a battery and it turned on, I bet you are right though and there is some faulty connection somewhere, just a matter of finding it

   Keep in mind that the headlight is running on A/C.

Jim.

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