TE300i and aftermarket head

[mog]

On the rk heads The increase in compression on the tpi is very little ,the sx has a huge jump and needs richer jetting 

[Ducatidoc1]

I'm not one for all this arguing,  but I will say that I just installed the RK head on my 2020 TE300I and the results are brilliant without any tuner.  I just did a 40mile ride from 1300 to 6500 feet and the bike ran flawlessly. Just saying...

Doc Scott

[Jeff Brines]

FYI - The latest iteration of the KTM/Husky/GasGas TPI map does seem to work okay with any head you want to run. They aren't as lean which bodes well for a good running bike. 

However, I'd still flash your bike if you are going to run one. Yes, I work for Silber and am biased, however there are still a few things we do to ensure a higher compression head does not knock, which is increasingly important considering the quality of pump gas we're seeing throughout the country. Plus, the amount of oil usage we're still seeing on the stock map is absurdly low, so there are other reasons to flash as well.

TL/DR - yes you can run an aftermarket head, but you may pay for it in reliability. 

[ckny]

13 hours ago, Jeff Brines said:

FYI - The latest iteration of the KTM/Husky/GasGas TPI map does seem to work okay with any head you want to run. They aren't as lean which bodes well for a good running bike. 

However, I'd still flash your bike if you are going to run one. Yes, I work for Silber and am biased, however there are still a few things we do to ensure a higher compression head does not knock, which is increasingly important considering the quality of pump gas we're seeing throughout the country. Plus, the amount of oil usage we're still seeing on the stock map is absurdly low, so there are other reasons to flash as well.

TL/DR - yes you can run an aftermarket head, but you may pay for it in reliability. 

The new map is not as lean as what? Just wondering which map you are comparing it to. I thought the 20/21’s were more lean in general than the 18/19 models. 

[Jeff Brines]

8 minutes ago, ckny said:

The new map is not as lean as what? Just wondering which map you are comparing it to. I thought the 20/21’s were more lean in general than the 18/19 models. 

I should have been more specific. 

1) The new map = map that came on my 2021 GasGas. I have no idea when this map went into circulation.

2) There were lean and rich spots in older maps (especially the 18/19 stuff). A bit rich isn't going to hurt anything. It might run terribly, but it won't matter what aftermarket head you have on. A lean spot coupled with a higher compression head can, in fact, cause issues. Especially if ignition timing is off in this spot too. This is what I was referring to. 

Unfortunately, this is old school fuel injection. There is no EGT in the pipe (wish there was). No correction tables based on what the motor is "seeing". Its blind, effectively. 

Hopefully as things progress we will get things like a knock sensor, a power valve that is activated electronically and an EGT, at which point we can finally tune these things more precisely. 

Until then, we are relying on some tuner wizardry to get things right.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Jeff Brines

[mog]

9 minutes ago, Jeff Brines said:

I should have been more specific. 

1) The new map = map that came on my 2021 GasGas. I have no idea when this map went into circulation.

2) There were lean and rich spots in older maps (especially the 18/19 stuff). A bit rich isn't going to hurt anything. It might run terribly, but it won't matter what aftermarket head you have on. A lean spot coupled with a higher compression head can, in fact, cause issues. Especially if ignition timing is off in this spot too. This is what I was referring to. 

Unfortunately, this is old school fuel injection. There is no EGT in the pipe (wish there was). No correction tables based on what the motor is "seeing". Its blind, effectively. 

Hopefully as things progress we will get things like a knock sensor, a power valve that is activated electronically and an EGT, at which point we can finally tune these things more precisely. 

Until then, we are relying on some tuner wizardry to get things right.

I have been saying  the same about the lean spots , but a we have is blanket statement on here 

 

Eg you can fit a head and pipe and PV spring and not change the fueling 

 

In fact we had a thread staring that ,and no one would listen that the 18 and 19 did not have the margin for error you need to do this 

 

I'm really pleased a person such as yourself has agreed 

[Paco32]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 8:42 AM, Ducatidoc1 said:

I'm not one for all this arguing,  but I will say that I just installed the RK head on my 2020 TE300I and the results are brilliant without any tuner.  I just did a 40mile ride from 1300 to 6500 feet and the bike ran flawlessly. Just saying...

Doc Scott

I like your response the best

[Norcal Factory]

I would be interested to hear from CA based people using pump gas. We have the oxygenated stuff which I think is worse for high compression. If you are going up to 8-9k feet with a high comp head are there issues? Pinging? Detonation?

[Clutch44]

1 hour ago, Norcal Factory said:

I would be interested to hear from CA based people using pump gas. We have the oxygenated stuff which I think is worse for high compression. If you are going up to 8-9k feet with a high comp head are there issues? Pinging? Detonation?

It's the opposite. The higher you go up the less compression there is.

[Ducatidoc1]

23 hours ago, Norcal Factory said:

I would be interested to hear from CA based people using pump gas. We have the oxygenated stuff which I think is worse for high compression. If you are going up to 8-9k feet with a high comp head are there issues? Pinging? Detonation?

I don't know about California gas, but I use 91 octane pump gas in my bike.  I'm in AZ.

Doc Scott

[mx_599]

I have been using 100 LL mixed 50:50 with ethanol free 90 pump mogas and it has not been too much a PITA or excessive expense to do this.

Do you all think this is a good option I am doing?

Thanks!!

[weantright]

With my TPI I notice no differences with 92 pump, ethanol free 90, 110 mixed/92 pump or straight 110. On my FX350, noticeable difference when using 110 mix with 92 pump to 98. For me it’s not worth the extra expensive. This is on a stock motor with and without Silber’s ECU tune. 
 

If you’re one for having gas sit around then ethanol free gas is a benefit.

Edited December 17, 2020 by weantright

[redrider144]

2 hours ago, mx_599 said:

I have been using 100 LL mixed 50:50 with ethanol free 90 pump mogas and it has not been too much a PITA or excessive expense to do this.

Do you all think this is a good option I am doing?

Yes.

[HERA]

Can't speak for other heads.. But the RK Tek Head is custom designed to work with the OCTANE and ethanol content used.. So, if you order a 91 octane head, it WILL run on 91 octane

 

[mx_599]

7 minutes ago, HERA said:

Can't speak for other heads.. But the RK Tek Head is custom designed to work with the OCTANE and ethanol content used.. So, if you order a 91 octane head, it WILL run on 91 octane

 

I am supposed to be talking to Taco tomorrow.

So he needs to know octane for head? How many iterations of heads are there correlating to octanes??

[HERA]

8 minutes ago, mx_599 said:

I am supposed to be talking to Taco tomorrow.

So he needs to know octane for head? How many iterations of heads are there correlating to octanes??

With RK Tek Heads it is unlimited iterations...

This is one of the differences between a "Generic" Head and a "Custom" Head.

Same with the performance--> Generic vs Custom..

[mx_599]

4 minutes ago, HERA said:

With RK Tek Heads it is unlimited iterations...

This is one of the differences between a "Generic" Head and a "Custom" Head.

Same with the performance--> Generic vs Custom..

So does taco take care of this or order direct with octane provisions?

[Jeff Brines]

2 hours ago, weantright said:

With my TPI I notice no differences with 92 pump, ethanol free 90, 110 mixed/92 pump or straight 110. On my FX350, noticeable difference when using 110 mix with 92 pump to 98. For me it’s not worth the extra expensive. This is on a stock motor with and without Silber’s ECU tune. 
 

If you’re one for having gas sit around then ethanol free gas is a benefit.

Ethanol free is going to run better in the TPI bikes, no question about it. This will become more notable if you put a head on it or similar. The reason is energy density. Ethanol isn't "bad" per say, but it does lean out the mixture on a BTU basis. This doesn't mean you can't run on 91 ethanol blend (like everyone else, I've run it too), but the bike is notably better on non-eth. 

YMMV.

SIDE NOTE: We could make an ethanol and non-ethanol map. Polaris does this for their sleds, effectively richening up the curve ~3%.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Jeff Brines

[weantright]

34 minutes ago, Jeff Brines said:

Ethanol free is going to run better in the TPI bikes, no question about it. This will become more notable if you put a head on it or similar. The reason is energy density. Ethanol isn't "bad" per say, but it does lean out the mixture on a BTU basis. This doesn't mean you can't run on 91 ethanol blend (like everyone else, I've run it too), but the bike is notably better on non-eth. 

YMMV.

SIDE NOTE: We could make an ethanol and non-ethanol map. Polaris does this for their sleds, effectively richening up the curve ~3%.

Sorry I ran a complete tank on a well known trail with no noticeable change. Was there a small change?? Maybe but my butt dyno didn’t feel it. Also same gas consumption at end of ride. 

[Jeff Brines]

17 minutes ago, weantright said:

Sorry I ran a complete tank on a well known trail with no noticeable change. Was there a small change?? Maybe but my butt dyno didn’t feel it. Also same gas consumption at end of ride. 

As I noted, you can run it. Some will notice a difference, and it certainly showed up on the dyno. The bike also runs a bit cooler. 

Does this mean the bike is massively different either way? No. But if you have the choice, its worth the extra $$$.

EDIT: Because I hate it when people throw out random ideas without data, here is the math...

The free energy of gasoline is 34.2 MJ per liter. The free energy of ethanol is 24.0 MJ per liter. That means E10 (10% ethanol) has a free energy of 33.2 MJ per liter, and E85 (85% ethanol) has a free energy of 25.6 MJ per liter. This means you'll get 3% less energy out of E10 than non-eth. It also means you will be slightly leaner on these old school EFI systems.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Jeff Brines