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KatoKonvert

Beta2Stroke EnduroSpec MXT Lucky carts for Beta 2020

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11 hours ago, dirtbird said:

7mm spring preload (measured) is way too much for enduro riding and 2 stroke in general. 

Agreed.Excessive preload offers up a horrible slappy feeling on those small obstacles.

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19 minutes ago, widebear said:

Agreed.Excessive preload offers up a horrible slappy feeling on those small obstacles.

Is it possible these have a top out spring that allows for those levels of main spring preload.....I doubt it. My luckies on my other bikes run 2-3mm on the two stroke and 4-5mm on the four stroke as recommended from my tuner. But just thinking out loud.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Texask5 said:

Is it possible these have a top out spring that allows for those levels of main spring preload.....I doubt it. My luckies on my other bikes run 2-3mm on the two stroke and 4-5mm on the four stroke as recommended from my tuner. But just thinking out loud.

   Think of spring preload as a barrier that inhibits the initial movement of the spring.It doesn't affect the spring rate itself but rather the force required to initiate movement.Thats why you can get deflection with a light spring rate that is to heavily preloaded.A much heavier spring with zero preload will feel more subtle initially than a heavily  pre loaded light spring.

 

Many folks equate heavier springs with overy firm suspension.While lighter springs,for ones weight may offer a more supple feel initially once the speeds and suspension velocities increase that feeling of comfort can quickly be replaced with some serious anxiety.

 

I understand that this is not a direct reply to your question but will hopefully shed some light on the subject for those who are not clear on the implications related to spring preload.

Edited by widebear
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Posted (edited)

Ride report from this weekend - Summary - Amazing!

2020 Beta 200RR
Front: MXTech Luckys up front installed and tuned by Endurospec
Rear: Endurospec re-valved shock (soon to have the bladder installed)

Did 50 miles of singletrack in the mountains by Crested Butte, Colorado. Lots of firmly implanted rocks and boulders in the trail and as you get higher up lots of scree and loose rocks to run into. The front end tracked like a gnar seeking missile and was never unpredictable. Going up hill climbs with erosion channeling cuts that serve as jumps I used to bottom the front end out slapping into the uphill by jumping these - the huck valve thing was absolutely night and day. I could tell I was using all the travel but the bottom out was like punching a memory foam pillow vs. a cheap pillow against concrete - if that makes sense.

I also have a mousse/moose/mouse tube up front now - so I can take lines that I never used to take - it's an absolutely steller combo for my type of riding. Before I wouldn't have tried to ram into rocks nearly as much to jump/combo them but now I can do so very predictably not only because I have full confidence in the front end not bottoming or spiking oddly in the mid stroke but also because, after having the front and rear done by endurospec, they work in perfect sync - the bike always jumps level and even keeled whether it's a smooth face or a jagged rock I'm trying to jump.

Whoops are a reality pretty much anywhere that sees motorized trail use and this suspension will keep you up in the midstroke very comfortably either just riding them without holding the front end up or if you choose to wheelie them and have to put the front end down, it does not bottom. It will nicely stay planted in the 1/2 to 3/4 travel through these whoops and that is a huge improvement over stock. The back end as stated above works in harmony with the lucky's and overall it's just a very pleasant bike to ride and ride harder now. Less fatiguing for sure. I wouldn't say its going to make a slow riding pace all that much better but if you're riding at a good fun trail pace and standing to let the bike do it's thing, the suspension rewards equal to the throttle position 🤘

Edited by mobile chernobyl
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I bought a set of used luckys from a guy about the same weight, riding ability, and terrain. They were out of a two stroke and they went into my 390. The plan is to send them back this coming winter with as much info as I can to get them as good as I can get. I’m now at 125mm air gap. I’ve got the compression out 6 clicks past recommended settings and they are working REALLY well. I still have about 55mm of travel in the front forks. I’d like to be using most of the travel. Not sure if I should go with a lighter spring. Im also wondering if I should put a set  speed bleeders on them. After about 20km of rough singletrack nonstop they were starting to get a bit rougher. As noted above, the faster you go, the better these inserts work. 

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12 hours ago, Techteach said:

I bought a set of used luckys from a guy about the same weight, riding ability, and terrain. They were out of a two stroke and they went into my 390. The plan is to send them back this coming winter with as much info as I can to get them as good as I can get. I’m now at 125mm air gap. I’ve got the compression out 6 clicks past recommended settings and they are working REALLY well. I still have about 55mm of travel in the front forks. I’d like to be using most of the travel. Not sure if I should go with a lighter spring. Im also wondering if I should put a set  speed bleeders on them. After about 20km of rough singletrack nonstop they were starting to get a bit rougher. As noted above, the faster you go, the better these inserts work. 

Beta forks do not completely wipe the inner tube when they are fully bottomed. Put the bike on a stand with the wheel elevated and measure from the dust seal to the top of the axle lug. Compare this to the travel specification (11.6" iirc) and account for a very small bit of top-out spring travel. 

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12 hours ago, Techteach said:

I bought a set of used luckys from a guy about the same weight, riding ability, and terrain. They were out of a two stroke and they went into my 390. The plan is to send them back this coming winter with as much info as I can to get them as good as I can get. I’m now at 125mm air gap. I’ve got the compression out 6 clicks past recommended settings and they are working REALLY well. I still have about 55mm of travel in the front forks. I’d like to be using most of the travel. Not sure if I should go with a lighter spring. Im also wondering if I should put a set  speed bleeders on them. After about 20km of rough singletrack nonstop they were starting to get a bit rougher. As noted above, the faster you go, the better these inserts work. 

IMO, don't use the button type speed bleeders unless you see no moisture.  I've taken two sets of KYBs apart now that had internal rust from drawing moisture back in when the fork cools down.  Was there actually air buildup?  They are not closed/pressurized chamber, so the oil can possibly get foamed up in repetitive, fast enough sharp edge hits, which affects rebound first.  I never used them but this is typical of OC forks in faster, rocky conditions with repetitive high damper speeds. 

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12 hours ago, Techteach said:

I bought a set of used luckys from a guy about the same weight, riding ability, and terrain. They were out of a two stroke and they went into my 390. The plan is to send them back this coming winter with as much info as I can to get them as good as I can get. I’m now at 125mm air gap. I’ve got the compression out 6 clicks past recommended settings and they are working REALLY well. I still have about 55mm of travel in the front forks. I’d like to be using most of the travel. Not sure if I should go with a lighter spring. Im also wondering if I should put a set  speed bleeders on them. After about 20km of rough singletrack nonstop they were starting to get a bit rougher. As noted above, the faster you go, the better these inserts work. 

i believe at full bottom you will still have ~1.5" of chrome showing ... and don't forget there is a huck valve in those inserts which takes effect about ~2" above bottoming

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, motoxgiant said:

Beta forks do not completely wipe the inner tube when they are fully bottomed. Put the bike on a stand with the wheel elevated and measure from the dust seal to the top of the axle lug. Compare this to the travel specification (11.6" iirc) and account for a very small bit of top-out spring travel. 

I had bottoming issues for the 1st time Sunday. 2 spots each lap. Just had the forks refreshed and need more oil. Surprised to see scrubbing but I run a 90/100 GT fatty. Finally killed my horn but it hung by the wire😃

EC740AEE-A04A-409E-9D71-125157895C73.jpeg

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8B56E7FC-CBD3-458F-97B5-8D43C3E89901.jpeg

CAA4E80B-AF2D-4FB0-830A-72025A1DCEC9.jpeg

Edited by Johnny Depp

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On 7/18/2020 at 4:00 AM, KatoKonvert said:

First ride 3hrs in rocky s/t yesterday. The first thing I noticed was greatly improved front wheel traction. The next thing I noticed was that the clickers work - 4 clicks out on Comp from my recommended 14 made a huge difference. The third thing I noticed was lighter steering. Nice.

I did find the mid-stroke to be a bit spiky - which surprised me as every review says how compliant these carts are right through the stroke. With this in mind, today I double-checked my install & found that the brake side cap had come loose off the rod & my oil levels were way too high. Perhaps I incorrectly bled the carts first up? Seemed ok. Anyway, a high oil level may explain the mid-stroke stiffness over baby-head square edge sandstone boulders. Maybe some cavitation explains it, too!

I checked and then re-set the oil level after bleeding carefully using Warren’s method - 120mm for me. I also had the wrong spacers up top - all the flat spacers are supposed to be under the spring - my kit came with no instructions. The biggest spacer up top gives me exactly 7mm pre-load - my recommended setting. 

General - the build quality appears excellent, EnduroSpec service & communication is very good but delivery time to Australia was severely impacted by COVID-19 - totally out of EnduroSpec’s control.

Already a marked improvement over stock, I am looking forward to continuing the tweaking to set these carts up for me. I’m pretty sure they will be superb when dialled in. 
 

i'm trying to dial my ES MXTs on the 200 that i swapped from my 250, what do you mean the 'biggest spacer up top gives me 7mm preload'? i currently have 3 plastic spacers in my setup and i've been thinking of removing one or two of the thinner ones to see if i can get some more compliance over nasty sections ... i'm at 130mm oil height but have also been wanting to drop to 120 and test again.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, typeone said:

i'm trying to dial my ES MXTs on the 200 that i swapped from my 250, what do you mean the 'biggest spacer up top gives me 7mm preload'? i currently have 3 plastic spacers in my setup and i've been thinking of removing one or two of the thinner ones to see if i can get some more compliance over nasty sections ... i'm at 130mm oil height but have also been wanting to drop to 120 and test again.

I mean after placing all the smaller washers under the spring & the largest 20mm spacer between the fork cap & the top of the spring, I get exactly 7mm pre-load.

I am going up to 0.46N/mm (91kg onboard) springs & trying just 2mm of pre-load before I get the carts re-valved by a mate. Mine are better after oil height adjustments, but are still spiky at mid-speed (30-40km/h) baby-head square edges. 
 

I rode a stock 2020 RR300, my bike & a 2018 Gas Gas EC300 with re-valved KYB. Across the same terrain, the KYB’s were miles better than my bike.

The same mate who set up the Kayaba’s will work on mine. They are getting there, but I know we can get these carts singing..


 

BF0EA78C-3B7C-457A-A030-58E083F221DD.jpeg

Edited by KatoKonvert
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9 minutes ago, KatoKonvert said:

I mean after placing all the smaller washers under the spring & the largest 20mm spacer between the fork cap & the top of the spring, I get exactly 7mm pre-load.

I am going up to 0.46N/mm (91kg onboard) springs & trying just 2mm of pre-load before I get the carts re-valved by a mate. Mine are better after oil height adjustments, but are still spiky at mid-speed (30-40km/h) baby-head square edges. 
 

I rode a stock 2020 RR300, my bike & a 2018 Gas Gas EC300 with re-valved KYB. Across the same terrain, the KYB’s were miles better than my bike.

The same mate who set up the Kayaba’s will work on mine. They are getting there, but I know we can get these carts singing..


 

BF0EA78C-3B7C-457A-A030-58E083F221DD.jpeg

thanks ... interesting, i have all of my spacers under the spring but that one looks different, more rough than the smooth-edged spacers my kit came with. there were three.

i'll experiment a little but yeah, these carts were miles above my stock stuff on the 250 ... still tuning 200 to know. 👍

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Posted (edited)

My buddy was bikeless this weekend so he rode my YZ250 and I rode the 390. The Yz is an 01 with an sss conversion which has been revalved for woods. We swapped and I went on the Yz so he could try out the lucky forks. He was more than impressed. Last year he rode all the 2020’s at a demo day including the new race models. He felt mine with the luckys was the best suspension of all the betas he has ridden  . Sadly, the Yz now feels like a lumber wagon to me. I guessing be doing some work to try and get it up to the level of the beta. 

Edited by Techteach
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Posted (edited)

Still not as good as I was hoping with 0.46N/mm springs in. I found them quite harsh today. Used various clicker settings over the same 5km Special Test-style loop & no real positive effect. The symptom is mid-stroke stiffness when attacking multiple consecutive baby-head sized square edges. My usual riding area is s/t made up of sandstone rocks & slabs of sandstone. 

Not sure if what I am experiencing is caused by cavitation, stiff valving or both. They are going to my buddy for a re-valve. I wish I hadn’t ridden my mate’s 2018 re-valved Gas Gas.

Edited by KatoKonvert

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3 hours ago, KatoKonvert said:

Still not as good as I was hoping with 0.46N/mm springs in. I found them quite harsh today. Used various clicker settings over the same 5km Special Test-style loop & no real positive effect. The symptom is mid-stroke stiffness when attacking multiple consecutive baby-head sized square edges. My usual riding area is s/t made up of sandstone rocks & slabs of sandstone. 

Not sure if what I am experiencing is caused by cavitation, stiff valving or both. They are going to my buddy for a re-valve. I wish I hadn’t ridden my mate’s 2018 re-valved Gas Gas.

What do you weigh? Your springs could be too soft and you are too deep into the stroke? How much travel were you using? 

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6 hours ago, Johnny Depp said:

What do you weigh? Your springs could be too soft and you are too deep into the stroke? How much travel were you using? 

92kg onboard - so spot on for 0.46N/mm rate. I’m only using about 70% of the travel & was when I had 0.42N/mm & 0.44N/mm rates, too.

Basically, the fork feels like it was set up for SX - I can’t imagine bottoming them! I will get the stacks off Warren & see what’s what. 

I guess I’m just a little disappointed as these carts have had great reviews and mine were valved for my terrain - rocky s/t. 

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5 hours ago, KatoKonvert said:

92kg onboard - so spot on for 0.46N/mm rate. I’m only using about 70% of the travel & was when I had 0.42N/mm & 0.44N/mm rates, too.

Basically, the fork feels like it was set up for SX - I can’t imagine bottoming them! I will get the stacks off Warren & see what’s what. 

I guess I’m just a little disappointed as these carts have had great reviews and mine were valved for my terrain - rocky s/t. 

Do these inserts use standard size shims and are they straight forward to adjust like the kybs? I hope you get these right and I'm sure you will with time.

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