Who's been out wrecking the trails?

[FlyingDirtrider]

4 hours ago, firffighter said:

I think Reid was just frustrated with inexperienced Riders attempting some of the Black diamond and Double Black Diamond trails and destroying them. 

Fair point!
But instead of threatening to close down trails, he should be doing a better job of finding a real solution.

Has this guy actually walked through a freshly logged area? His excuse as others have said is a complete fallacy when compared to the kind of damage logging does. Particularly in the light of your previous thread about ORV areas being specifically targeted for logging.
We should be talking solutions to the problem, not threatening to close down areas.

If the problem is squibs tearing up harder trails, what can we do to prevent that? Lets all come up with some workable ideas and present them to him? Offer to help implement them, etc.
Not saying you aren't already doing this! As you're considerably more involved than most on this forum. Just the fact you have a dialog with him is more than most of us can say!
Few off the top of my head:

1. Create some more aggressive "filters" at the entrances to the harder trails?
2. Put out some more "foreboding" signage at trail entrances? (extreme difficulty, etc)
3. Start an education campaign directed at wheels spinners? Signage in parking lot & trail entrances warning of trail closures due to that behavior, etc.

Edited August 11, 2020 by FlyingDirtrider

[jrodicus100]

13 minutes ago, firffighter said:

I think Reid has every right  to express his opinion on this issue.

I think it's an elitist opinion though, and horseshit. It's not just inexperienced riders or hard-enduro wannabes causing trail damage. Trails get damaged by the sheer number of tires on them, just like roads. Trails require maintenance. Trails are &%$#@!ing DIRT. Trails change over time, just like rivers and streams do. You can't expect that pristine, freshly built single track to look the same as it did when new after years of riding with little to no maintenance. Trails do tend to get more difficult over time unless serious work is put into them.

 

[firffighter]

3 minutes ago, FlyingDirtrider said:

1. Create some more aggressive "filters" at the entrances to the harder trails?
2. Put out some more "foreboding" signage at trail entrances? (extreme difficulty, etc)
3. Start an education campaign directed at wheels spinners? Signage in parking lot & trail entrances warning of trail closures due to that behavior, etc.

Love it! Excellent ideas. 

 

[jrodicus100]

 

4 minutes ago, FlyingDirtrider said:

1. Create some more aggressive "filters" at the entrances to the harder trails?
2. Put out some more "foreboding" signage at trail entrances? (extreme difficulty, etc)

Agreed. Turkey traps are common on the 4x4 trails - might be beneficial on single track too. Lot of "pirate" trail builders use them to keep the uninitiated out. 

Signage is definitely lacking. I don't see why the state can't put up difficulty ratings on the trails or trail map at least. Some of the USFS areas have it, and it would prevent a lot of ppl from getting in way over their heads. People ask all the time in the Walker thread about it. Instead, the DNR probably spent buckets of money putting in signs telling riders to stay out of the freshly clearcut area, like a single 12" track would harm that recently scorched earth. 

[Orion Watson]

7 minutes ago, FlyingDirtrider said:

1. Create some more aggressive "filters" at the entrances to the harder trails?
 

Squirrel catchers are great as long as people don't just ride around them. The mountain biking world uses them with pretty good success.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, FlyingDirtrider said:

walked through a freshly logged area? His excuse as others have said is a complete fallacy when compared to the kind of damage logging does. Particularly in the light of your previous thread about ORV areas being specifically targeted for logging.
We should be talking solutions to the problem, not threatening to close down areas. This tells me all I need to know about where is heart and perspective really is and that is concerning considering his job title.

 

He personally goes out and cuts fresh trails for events and/or maintains existing trails. More blank assumptions. Awesome 

 

[firffighter]

2 minutes ago, jrodicus100 said:

I think it's an elitist opinion though, and horseshit. It's not just inexperienced riders or hard-enduro wannabes causing trail damage. Trails get damaged by the sheer number of tires on them, just like roads. Trails require maintenance. Trails are &%$#@!ing DIRT. Trails change over time, just like rivers and streams do. You can't expect that pristine, freshly built single track to look the same as it did when new after years of riding with little to no maintenance. Trails do tend to get more difficult over time unless serious work is put into them.

 

I think there's a lot of truth that number of tires is a big factor,  especially this year as we've seen a lot more riders out than years past. 

I think understanding the Tillamook riding area and how different Brown's compared to Diamond Mill, and the ridiculous amount of hours Reid and others have put in to create a vibrant riding area is key.

I would imagine Reid has felt a lot of weight as the lead OHV specialist at TSF, with the Covid situation,  with trail damage,  with an unreal amount of trash left behind by riders this season, and with 2 very young children injured with severe trauma at this OHV this summer. This has probably been the source of much frustration.

 

[FlyingDirtrider]

6 minutes ago, onefatroach said:

He personally goes out and cuts fresh trails for events and/or maintains existing trails. More blank assumptions. Awesome 

He may well, but that doesn't change the fact he's openly threatening to close trails due to "damage" caused by inexperienced riders. Instead of doing his job as a mediator and manager of the trails and finding a solution the problem that works for everyone. I'm not saying we need to flame the guy, we should come along side him and help with the solution part, that's all.

So, do you have a solution the the problem as stated?

Edited August 11, 2020 by FlyingDirtrider

[EmpireofDerp]

16 hours ago, Chuck. said:

well this isn't going well

But I agree with the OP  that too many inexperienced riders can quickly tear up trails, I see it every year at a fav riding area after a Poker Run.

I see it on my favorite trails after a race event. Newbs don't &%$#@! up a trail anywhere near as hard as 50 B riders trying to be Cody Webb taking A lines over the top of every S turn on their 450s and 300s. Seriously, this ain't about skill levels, it's about traffic levels. Trails getting blown out? Build more &%$#@!ing trails. 

[UpperLeft]

14 minutes ago, firffighter said:

I think there's a lot of truth that number of tires is a big factor,  especially this year as we've seen a lot more riders out than years past. 

I think understanding the Tillamook riding area and how different Brown's compared to Diamond Mill, and the ridiculous amount of hours Reid and others have put in to create a vibrant riding area is key.

I would imagine Reid has felt a lot of weight as the lead OHV specialist at TSF, with the Covid situation,  with trail damage,  with an unreal amount of trash left behind by riders this season, and with 2 very young children injured with severe trauma at this OHV this summer. This has probably been the source of much frustration.

 

I couldn't even begin to understand how much pressure and frustration the trail managers are feeling right now. One one side they want to provide the best riding possible but on the other side they are dealing with the worst of the worst in the riding community, then the looming pressure of enviro and other groups trying to get anything with an engine shut down.... Talk about being between a rock and a hard place. 

People seem to be getting stuck on him wanting to shut down the trail. I think its obvious he doesn't want to shut anything down but per the law (at least to my understanding) if sediment is getting into runoff and streams then it has to be fixed, if it can't get fixed it gets shut down... It sucks and i don't agree with the law but that what it is. 

 

[EmpireofDerp]

16 hours ago, 8675309 said:

You got's to have a 450....  Got's to.

Pfft, 701 rolling on a 140 or gtfo.

[firffighter]

6 minutes ago, Patrickpnw said:

I couldn't even begin to understand how much pressure and frustration the trail managers are feeling right now. One one side they want to provide the best riding possible but on the other side they are dealing with the worst of the worst in the riding community, then the looming pressure of enviro and other groups trying to get anything with an engine shut down.... Talk about being between a rock and a hard place. 

People seem to be getting stuck on him wanting to shut down the trail. I think its obvious he doesn't want to shut anything down but per the law (at least to my understanding) if sediment is getting into runoff and streams then it has to be fixed, if it can't get fixed it gets shut down... It sucks and i don't agree with the law but that what it is. 

 

Well said!

[BlueDawnEnduro]

Strange hypocrisy in that video: this guys Dad help built the original trails completely rogue to begin with? Probably didn't cost taxpayers a dime back then. Fine by me. But now environmentalists have been weaponized. And you got government groups who create self-licking popcicles.

[EmpireofDerp]

1 hour ago, Patrickpnw said:

This probably wont be a popular opinion here but I don't get he "inexperienced riders ripping stuff up" thing. Yes there will be trenchers and idiots out there, but even the pros are spinning their tires and tearing stuff up at times. I am definitely guilty of doing this sometimes, especially when I am dead tired or don't get a good run up to an obstacle. I feel like its just part of the sport. Any trail with too much pressure is going to get damaged. 

Most of the reason I enjoy dirt biking is because it's challenging. Riding things that are over your comfort or skill level is how you get better. I don't think we should necessarily blame new inexperience riders for their inexperience.

It seems like 99% of the issues we face have to do with overcrowded trails. Which is a direct result of a ridiculous amount of regulation that makes following all of the laws practically impossible and makes new ORV trails cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a mile. They really need to make their own set of regulations for single track moto trails that allows for more miles of true single track. Let the quads and SxS do doughnuts in a gravel parking lot and tear up the tiny ORV park, and let single track users disappear into the woods and not bother anyone. 

You're dreaming. To the public, and even most power sports people, dirt bikers are all total scumbags. They will snuff us out, just a matter of maybe another 10 or 15 years. 

[UpperLeft]

3 minutes ago, NoitatorYvaeh said:

You're dreaming. To the public, and even most power sports people, dirt bikers are all total scumbags. They will snuff us out, just a matter of maybe another 10 or 15 years. 

A guy can dream....

I think the E bike thing is going to completely change the dirt bike world. 

I can totally see why people hate dirt bikes, especially when they have never ridden one. They are just loud machines tearing up the forest ruining other peoples peaceful time outdoors to the people who don't understand the sport. I think once more bikes, and eventually the majority are electric riders will be able to get away with a lot more and hopefully there will be more turning a blind eye and some leeway like mt bikers currently enjoy. 

 

I will always have a few gas bikes, but once there is an electric bike that meets my requirements I will be all over it. 

[tod701]

41 minutes ago, Patrickpnw said:

I couldn't even begin to understand how much pressure and frustration the trail managers are feeling right now. One one side they want to provide the best riding possible but on the other side they are dealing with the worst of the worst in the riding community, then the looming pressure of enviro and other groups trying to get anything with an engine shut down.... Talk about being between a rock and a hard place. 

People seem to be getting stuck on him wanting to shut down the trail. I think its obvious he doesn't want to shut anything down but per the law (at least to my understanding) if sediment is getting into runoff and streams then it has to be fixed, if it can't get fixed it gets shut down... It sucks and i don't agree with the law but that what it is. 

 

I was on a conference call last week with land managers from the DNR, NPS, USFS, WDFW, etc and the recurring theme is this year they are getting slammed.

Both the facilities and the guys on the ground are overwhelmed.

Everywhere is overflowing with people and so many of them are clueless newbies that don't have a clue or desire to know how to behave.

[highmarker]

Target shooter trash is fastly becoming a problem here. Not an issue in that it really hurts anything. But a probl that it attracts more of the same and dumping more stuff. The targets and ammo litter beer food etc left behind.just say "it's ok to be a pig here". 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tod701 said:

I was on a conference call last week with land managers from the DNR, NPS, USFS, WDFW, etc and the recurring theme is this year they are getting slammed.

Both the facilities and the guys on the ground are overwhelmed.

Everywhere is overflowing with people and so many of them are clueless newbies that don't have a clue or desire to know how to behave.

Ultimately I think it comes down to a few things:

a) over usage in a small areas

b) people not knowing their abilities (no clutch and theottle control)

c) beginners out there who are new to the game.

Its up to us experienced riders to set an example on how to treat the areas we have no before there's even less places to ride. While I don't think those are a cure all, I think its a healthy start. We got what we got, we can't go backwards and cry about what was already done. We can only try to address now and try to have an influence on the future.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Guest

[highmarker]

Just now, tod701 said:

I was on a conference call last week with land managers from the DNR, NPS, USFS, WDFW, etc and the recurring theme is this year they are getting slammed.

Both the facilities and the guys on the ground are overwhelmed.

Everywhere is overflowing with people and so many of them are clueless newbies that don't have a clue or desire to know how to behav

Same everywhere too, not just the nw. It's crazy. Local riding staging has people tenting out of cars that don't even have orv's. People with rv's trying to squeeze in anywhere. State parks full so they direct them to the orv areas which are like the wild wild west at night.

[UpperLeft]

18 minutes ago, tod701 said:

I was on a conference call last week with land managers from the DNR, NPS, USFS, WDFW, etc and the recurring theme is this year they are getting slammed.

Both the facilities and the guys on the ground are overwhelmed.

Everywhere is overflowing with people and so many of them are clueless newbies that don't have a clue or desire to know how to behave.

Yup. I am lucky enough to know a few boondock spots off the beaten path but even those are getting found and filled up quick. They can't blame the users though, what else are people supposed to do when pretty much everything is shut down. I just hope they don't use this surge usage and damage as a reason to shut stuff down riding and camping areas. 

They are having the same issues at hiking areas, or pretty much anywhere worth being outside, beaches, parks, etc. 

The big issue no matter what group is the people with no respect for other people or nature. $hitty TP all over the place, garbage and beer cans everywhere. dirt bikers, mt bikers, hikers, car campers, every group has these types. 

 

I don;t blame the newbies, We were all there at one point, and many don't have any decent person to teach them how to responsibly recreate, so they are left figure it out for themselves. Most that stick around eventually figure it out, some don't.