Jump to content
Doc Brown

GasGas2Stroke 2019 EC 300 Starter Issues

Recommended Posts

2019 EC 300  (not 2018) Only 2018 models are known for starter issues...

 

Starter worked flawless for almost 50 hrs, even with a smaller Shido battery. It never ever hesitated or had similar issues as the 2018's. On Saturday I rode with a friend and the starter worked like normal. After the ride I washed the bike as usual.

Today I changed the jetting and when I started the bike it hesitated almost exactly like in the well known video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXXjFw9ghDE&ab_channel=MotoCenterPowersports

It just turned the engine half a turn then stopped and made a weird whining noise. I tried several times and always waited about 20 seconds between the starting attempts. As the voltage indicator on the dash said the battery is empty I measured the voltage which was 13.2 volts. However, I charged the battery and tried again once it was full. Funny that though the battery was full (13,75 volts), the dash showed it was empty. I tried to start several times, but always the same problem, the engine did not crank, just half a turn or so and the bike made weird whining noises as long as I kept the button pushed. Like something was mechanically blocked.

I then tried a different battery of my friends GP 300 but still no joy, just a few turns then a whining noise.

So i checked and cleaned all connections from battery to starter relay and so on, but this did not change anything. I decided to take the starter and bendix cover off. I realized that the starter was pretty hot when I took it off and it smelled like burnt metal. I held it against the engine and pushed the button and it spun. I cleaned the gears, bendix and starter shaft applied some fresh grease and put the starter motor back in. Needless to say it did not crank the engine... 

Used the kicker and it started immediately. I warmed up the engine riding up and down the road as I wanted to see if the starter motor will crank the engine over when it was hot. When I tried to start the hot engine all I heard was a clicking noise from the starter relay. 😡 Close to kicking the &%$#@!ing bike from the stand I went for a break.
When I had cooled down I measured continuity of the starter and immediately knew it was toast. The starter smelled like burnt copper and insulation paint. When i opened it the first thing that fell out was piece of copper wire. 😤 :censored:


39592529hk.jpg


Called my friend and asked him if I can take his starter for testing and he said no problem. So installed his starter, pushed the button and BINGO! It cranked the engine over like mad. I tried ten times. I removed the spark plug cap and tried and it cranked like mad. The starter did not even get warm though I let it crank for almost 10 seconds at least 6 times. :blink:

I am puzzled now as I can not imagine why my starter motor failed to crank the engine. A new starter motor is on order and should arrive on Monday. As far as I know a starter motor is either good or it doesn't work. In 45 years of wrenching I have never heard that a starter motor gets weaker.:confused:

What do you think? I'd be happy to hear your opinions.

Doc

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Worth trying the KTM starter with casing flipped around? Maybe price is similar? Both are 410w from memory.

Was there any sign of water ingress? Could be a possible cause of failure 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, gez300 said:

Worth trying the KTM starter with casing flipped around? Maybe price is similar? Both are 410w from memory.

Was there any sign of water ingress? Could be a possible cause of failure 

Nope, the starter was bone dry inside and it looked as it has been tight. There was water on (in?) the starter relay but it worked fine. I found some of the pins of the diode (sits left of the starter relay) corroded but this has nothing to do with the starter not cranking the engine over.

For me it is a mystery. If I look at the facts, there are two problems with these bikes:

  1. the starter works fine and cranks the engine, but it wont start due to a missing spark
  2. the starer does not crank the engine and that is why it can't be started

While the first problem may affect a few bikes, the second is more common and I know at least 4 owners having the same problem, but only with 2018 bikes. So that this affects a 2019 is strange.

However, one myth is, that a stronger battery may help. It may help "the no spark" issue but sure not the other problem. For me this was clear from the first day I had my 2018 GP 300. I tried two different batteries and then I tried a professional workshop starting system. And whatever I connected it made one clunking noise then started to produce whining noises. The pro starter system can start a Russian T34 tank after it has been sitting for 70 years. What people don't get is, you can connect a power plant but the starter will only pull a certain amount of amps. That is why bigger batteries, thicker cables simply wont help.

Once that is clear it automatically leads us to the fact that something does not move freely or is blocked. The question is, what is blocked or does not spin as it should. The guy in the well known "how to solve GG starting issues" video may be right about the little gear shaft spinning in the pinion or the bendix bell rotating on its shaft. But if that is the cause wouldn't we hear something spinning? All we get is a clunk and then silence or a whining noise. Why don't we hear the loose bendix bell or the small shaft turning?

For me it is a mystery. And concerning my bike it is even a bigger mystery as it seems that my starters power deteriorated, which I think is impossible...

Edited by Doc Brown

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always wondered that it might be an incorrectly machined ignition case causing some issues. I should buy a Rieju cover one day and check my theory.

If it makes you feel any better, I have a 17 built 2018 and it has the dreaded starter issues. It will only start when warmed up, usually this is the only time you need it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, gez300 said:

I've always wondered that it might be an incorrectly machined ignition case causing some issues. I should buy a Rieju cover one day and check my theory.

If it makes you feel any better, I have a 17 built 2018 and it has the dreaded starter issues. It will only start when warmed up, usually this is the only time you need it.

I could live with that, honestly! My GP 300/2018 never ever started with the e-start when cold, except once when I picked it up from the dealer. I then started the whole annoying and well known story. Flashed ECU, thicker cables, different battery, polished plain bearing in bendix cover, different start switch, new starter relay....

After a while I just kicked it on the first start of the day and from then it was my procedure. Kick it once in the morning and then use the e-start which worked a zillion times without the slightest problem provided the engine was fully warmed.

Then, my first 2019, never ever had the slightest problem whether in gear or not, whether cold or hot. Not a single fail till I sold it. I then bought the last brand new 2019 my dealer had and its starter worked flawless until yesterday. 

Edited by Doc Brown
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doc your bench looks a lot like mine right now, lol. So I replaced my starter last year because it fried exactly like yours. Burnt smell from the armature and one of the brushes actually completely broke off.  Just last weekend the 2nd starter showed its first sign of distress. So I pulled it, changed the brushes (which I guess is a service item that most people don’t do) and cleaned everything up (a lot of built up gunk around bendix and inside ignition cover. I also orders a AS3 bendix cover which is supposed to have better machining. Supposed to get that on Friday. I’ll follow up when I get it back together. I did find a bit of rust by the flywheel which surprised me and some odd markings/scratches on the inside of the ignition cover that are puzzling. 
 

C2A3D929-6B58-405B-9D92-7F99DE5AE906.jpeg

2AEB3BAF-0E13-4AB5-8355-F0B922552524.jpeg

21B707C4-F1D6-4930-81C0-38F1638D06CC.jpeg

  • Like 1
  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the dreaded 2018 XC 300 and my starter is beginning to give me more issues than usual. I have done the welding as the video you posted states but I haven't noticed a change. I have gone through or replaced just about everything else (bearings, battery, relay, gears, wiring.) except the motor. I did the same test of removing the motor, placing against the the engine and starting. It spins up with quite a bit of torque so I figured it was OK. 

After reading your post I just ordered a KTM starter motor as it is more readily available for me. I'll give that a shot and see if it gets things going. 

  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, dh3000 said:

I have the dreaded 2018 XC 300 and my starter is beginning to give me more issues than usual. I have done the welding as the video you posted states but I haven't noticed a change. I have gone through or replaced just about everything else (bearings, battery, relay, gears, wiring.) except the motor. I did the same test of removing the motor, placing against the the engine and starting. It spins up with quite a bit of torque so I figured it was OK. 

After reading your post I just ordered a KTM starter motor as it is more readily available for me. I'll give that a shot and see if it gets things going. 

I just realized the original starter motor in my bike was supposedly replaced by previous owner almost exactly 55hours ago. Pretty sure they used a '19 motor as well. 

Edited by dh3000
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Nope, the starter was bone dry inside and it looked as it has been tight. There was water on (in?) the starter relay but it worked fine. I found some of the pins of the diode (sits left of the starter relay) corroded but this has nothing to do with the starter not cranking the engine over.

For me it is a mystery. If I look at the facts, there are two problems with these bikes:

  1. the starter works fine and cranks the engine, but it wont start due to a missing spark
  2. the starer does not crank the engine and that is why it can't be started

While the first problem may affect a few bikes, the second is more common and I know at least 4 owners having the same problem, but only with 2018 bikes. So that this affects a 2019 is strange.

However, one myth is, that a stronger battery may help. It may help "the no spark" issue but sure not the other problem. For me this was clear from the first day I had my 2018 GP 300. I tried two different batteries and then I tried a professional workshop starting system. And whatever I connected it made one clunking noise then started to produce whining noises. The pro starter system can start a Russian T34 tank after it has been sitting for 70 years. What people don't get is, you can connect a power plant but the starter will only pull a certain amount of amps. That is why bigger batteries, thicker cables simply wont help.

Once that is clear it automatically leads us to the fact that something does not move freely or is blocked. The question is, what is blocked or does not spin as it should. The guy in the well known "how to solve GG starting issues" video may be right about the little gear shaft spinning in the pinion or the bendix bell rotating on its shaft. But if that is the cause wouldn't we hear something spinning? All we get is a clunk and then silence or a whining noise. Why don't we hear the loose bendix bell or the small shaft turning?

For me it is a mystery. And concerning my bike it is even a bigger mystery as it seems that my starters power deteriorated, which I think is impossible...

Had the same problem with my 18 when I first got it. Got a new starter motor and also bought a KTM unit as a back up. On top of the smoked starter motor the bearing inside the flywheel cover was toast. New cover was given to me and I have had little issues since other than my bending spinning. I need to get the spare one welded at some point because the one I have now will spin eventually. 

  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Iakovos1 said:

Doc your bench looks a lot like mine right now, lol. So I replaced my starter last year because it fried exactly like yours. Burnt smell from the armature and one of the brushes actually completely broke off.  Just last weekend the 2nd starter showed its first sign of distress. So I pulled it, changed the brushes (which I guess is a service item that most people don’t do) and cleaned everything up (a lot of built up gunk around bendix and inside ignition cover. I also orders a AS3 bendix cover which is supposed to have better machining. Supposed to get that on Friday. I’ll follow up when I get it back together. I did find a bit of rust by the flywheel which surprised me and some odd markings/scratches on the inside of the ignition cover that are puzzling. 
 

C2A3D929-6B58-405B-9D92-7F99DE5AE906.jpeg

2AEB3BAF-0E13-4AB5-8355-F0B922552524.jpeg

21B707C4-F1D6-4930-81C0-38F1638D06CC.jpeg

I have those markings on the inside of my cover too. I thought the were cause when my keyway snapped and the flywheel fell off. Maybe its from a slight flex of the cover from the torque of the starter motor. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Iakovos1 said:

Doc your bench looks a lot like mine right now, lol. So I replaced my starter last year because it fried exactly like yours. Burnt smell from the armature and one of the brushes actually completely broke off.  Just last weekend the 2nd starter showed its first sign of distress. So I pulled it, changed the brushes (which I guess is a service item that most people don’t do) and cleaned everything up (a lot of built up gunk around bendix and inside ignition cover. I also orders a AS3 bendix cover which is supposed to have better machining. Supposed to get that on Friday. I’ll follow up when I get it back together. I did find a bit of rust by the flywheel which surprised me and some odd markings/scratches on the inside of the ignition cover that are puzzling. 
 

Lakovos, my old friend :-) Glad to see you are still here. Please answer a few questions. Is your bike a 2018 or 2019? From what I see from the fly wheel I'd say it is a 2019. Did your starter work normally or did it hesitate to turn over the engine? What did the second starter do that you decided to take it apart?
Yes, brushes should be serviced every 30 to 40 hours but nobody does. I did not disassemble my starter that far, I just took the rotor out of the housing. I am not sure if I can manage to get the brushes out and in again when cleaned. Allegedly the S3 cover has a much better plain bearing, so maybe I'll get one too. As we talk about plain bearings, did you realize that the starters rotor also sits in plain bearings?

My flywheel showed also some rust, maybe a little less than yours. I just brushed it off with a wire brush, then gave it a light spray with WD40. I have no clue where the markings are from but it seems that the distance between the scratches is the same distance that the teeth of the ring gears have. So I guess the scratches are from installation in the factory.

Yes, please keep us informed how things are going with your starter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, tmeyer37 said:

Had the same problem with my 18 when I first got it. Got a new starter motor and also bought a KTM unit as a back up. On top of the smoked starter motor the bearing inside the flywheel cover was toast. New cover was given to me and I have had little issues since other than my bending spinning. I need to get the spare one welded at some point because the one I have now will spin eventually. 

Why did they give a new cover to you? Did the bearing destroy the cover?

7 hours ago, dh3000 said:

I have the dreaded 2018 XC 300 and my starter is beginning to give me more issues than usual. I have done the welding as the video you posted states but I haven't noticed a change. I have gone through or replaced just about everything else (bearings, battery, relay, gears, wiring.) except the motor. I did the same test of removing the motor, placing against the the engine and starting. It spins up with quite a bit of torque so I figured it was OK. 

After reading your post I just ordered a KTM starter motor as it is more readily available for me. I'll give that a shot and see if it gets things going. 

When you say more issues than usual, what exactly do you mean? Does it more often refuse to crank the engine?

6 hours ago, dh3000 said:

I just realized the original starter motor in my bike was supposedly replaced by previous owner almost exactly 55hours ago. Pretty sure they used a '19 motor as well. 

I talked to GasGas and they said the starter motors are the same for 2019 and 2018 :confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, sorry that I write so much, really don't want to bother you. But I forgot to ask you about the KTM starter. I thought I cannot use the KTM starter as I have read it spins in the wrong direction. Is this a myth and if not how do you manage that it spins in the right direction. We talk about the KTM starter from the models till 2016 as from 2017 KTM changed to a "under engine starter".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a video on YouTube on re-clocking the housing which let's it spin in the opposite direction, filmed in a wind tunnel but informative. The KTM and GG starters are both 410w but as has been mentioned here and in ggriders, they can be more available/cheaper than the GG starters.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did a search but could not find it. Maybe I got the wrong search terms...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Lakovos, my old friend 🙂 Glad to see you are still here. Please answer a few questions. Is your bike a 2018 or 2019? From what I see from the fly wheel I'd say it is a 2019. Did your starter work normally or did it hesitate to turn over the engine? What did the second starter do that you decided to take it apart?
Yes, brushes should be serviced every 30 to 40 hours but nobody does. I did not disassemble my starter that far, I just took the rotor out of the housing. I am not sure if I can manage to get the brushes out and in again when cleaned. Allegedly the S3 cover has a much better plain bearing, so maybe I'll get one too. As we talk about plain bearings, did you realize that the starters rotor also sits in plain bearings?

My flywheel showed also some rust, maybe a little less than yours. I just brushed it off with a wire brush, then gave it a light spray with WD40. I have no clue where the markings are from but it seems that the distance between the scratches is the same distance that the teeth of the ring gears have. So I guess the scratches are from installation in the factory.

Yes, please keep us informed how things are going with your starter.

Doc, doing well sir, hope all is well with you, your are correct, 2019 XC300.  My starter did the exact same thing as the video, basically half way turning over the motor and then stopping.  My second starter has around 15 hours on it, however I am a shitty rider so I'm sure I hit the button more than most.  

As for changing the brushes, I had never done it before either and I'm a very novice mechanic.  Slavens has a 3 part series on rebuilding the starter (older 350W KTM starter) and in the 3rd video he shows a trick to getting the armature back in, it worked perfectly.  However if your armature is burnt, I believe you are up shit creek because they don't make a repair kit that includes the armature for the newer 410W starter (that I know of), they only have one for the old 350W starter.  One of the brushes needs to be soldered (different than video), I found that to be more of a PIA than getting the armature back in (but I hate soldering).  The brush kit is $10-$15 so I figured it was worth a shot, if it works, great, if not I already have another starter on the way (#3).

I also could not find a video changing the direction of the starter.  However if I get some time I'm going to play with my old starter on the bench and figure it out.

I need to have everything back together and running Friday night because I have a ride on Saturday morning.  I will update then.

 

  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Why did they give a new cover to you? Did the bearing destroy the cover?

 

The new cover already had the bearings pressed in. He didn't have the bearings separate. 

Edited by tmeyer37
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Guys, sorry that I write so much, really don't want to bother you. But I forgot to ask you about the KTM starter. I thought I cannot use the KTM starter as I have read it spins in the wrong direction. Is this a myth and if not how do you manage that it spins in the right direction. We talk about the KTM starter from the models till 2016 as from 2017 KTM changed to a "under engine starter".

Yes it the 2016 starter. 

 

 

  • Helpful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, tmeyer37 said:

Yes it the 2016 starter. 

 

 

Thanks tmeyer37!!!  Can you confirm the directions, my understanding is the GG starter should spin CCW and the KTM spins CW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Iakovos1 said:

Thanks tmeyer37!!!  Can you confirm the directions, my understanding is the GG starter should spin CCW and the KTM spins CW.

To be honest its been so long since I did it that I can't remember. When I rotated the casing on mine I turned on the KTM starter with a 12v jump box and watched the direction it rotated and then drew an arrow with a sharpie on the bottom of the housing showing the opposite direction so I knew which way it needed to go. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Reply with:


×
×
  • Create New...