Dual front suspension system on a KTM

[Kinematics]

4 hours ago, Piney Woods said:

How much weight is added? How much tuning knowledge is required? How much added maintenance? 90% of riders are not regular competitors, do they really want this added complexity?

If you are going to just focus on the supposed negatives....then this is not for you....this is for the Hard core rider who wants higher performance at any cost....simple as that.

[Piney Woods]

41 minutes ago, Kinematics said:

If you are going to just focus on the supposed negatives....then this is not for you....this is for the Hard core rider who wants higher performance at any cost....simple as that.

If that is your "answer" I have just learned all I need to know. Thanks.

[DEATH_INC.]

1 hour ago, Kinematics said:

If you are going to just focus on the supposed negatives....then this is not for you....this is for the Hard core rider who wants higher performance at any cost....simple as that.

Bloody Aussies 

1 hour ago, Piney Woods said:

If that is your "answer" I have just learned all I need to know. Thanks.

Piney,  I think it'd be not that bad. If you look at the system, the links will actually do less work than a rear arm/link, so will be at worst no more maintenance than those, and should be much less. The shock will again (for the same reason) last much longer between services. I'd imagine unless it was really rough it'd barely even get hot. As for the mythical 'average' bloke, well, they all seem happy enough to ride fourstrokes, so complexity won't mean much as long as it's reliable.

The only 'iffy' bit I can see on the whole system would be the little steering links, as it looks like they have fairly small joints that may wear quickly (ish) and you may bend them in a big getoff?

The potential for this setup in high speed desert/XC conditions would be huge, all those things you don't see 'till the last minute would be handled so much better (at least by the front). Even trail riding it would allow you to run the 'normal' fork soft, and you still have the shock when you need it for any unexpected bigger stuff. Same with MX, shorting doubles, slap downs from grabbing the rear brake, even charging whoops could all be much better with this setup. Be great to see it on a SX track.

Tuning knowledge will be like everything new, you'll need to spend some time to learn it. But no different from going from girders to tele forks, then from damper rods to cartridge, closed cartridge etc. And because you have a 'separate' dual system the tuning potential is much greater.

Hopefully Kinematics will come back and confirm this, or at least tell Me if I'm talking a load of rubbish.

Edited November 20, 2020 by DEATH_INC.

[Kinematics]

3 hours ago, DEATH_INC. said:

Bloody Aussies 

Hopefully Kinematics will come back and confirm this, or at least tell Me if I'm talking a load of rubbish.

I cant confirm or deny any of what you said...certainly it sounds plausible for the most part.

Everything I have said in my posts is stuff I know for certain based on feedback received or results we have achieved so far.....none of it is bullshit.......Pineys questions were questions which I cant yet quantify and answer and do not really care about at this stage......to answer him would be bullshit.........I am still busy proving what I have set out to do.....its only once you have nailed what you want a design to do that you can then figure what it isnt good at and then solve those issues.

I find there is too much negativity from people and I have a short fuse for it these days....and people have to realize that this isnt going to be forced upon anybody...if you dont like it....dont buy or ride it.

Anyways....the Australasian Dirt Bike Magazine Feature is maybe due out early Dec or Jan...It is available as an online digital purchase I believe.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Kinematics

[Randy300XC]

1 hour ago, Kinematics said:

I cant confirm or deny any of what you said...certainly it sounds plausible for the most part.

Everything I have said in my posts is stuff I know for certain based on feedback received or results we have achieved so far.....none of it is bullshit.......Pineys questions were questions which I cant yet quantify and answer and do not really care about at this stage......to answer him would be bullshit.........I am still busy proving what I have set out to do.....its only once you have nailed what you want a design to do that you can then figure what it isnt good at and then solve those issues.

I find there is too much negativity from people and I have a short fuse for it these days....and people have to realize that this isnt going to be forced upon anybody...if you dont like it....dont buy or ride it.

Anyways....the Australasian Dirt Bike Magazine Feature is maybe due out early Dec or Jan...It is available as an online digital purchase I believe.

You did a fantastic job to this point. Don’t stop sharing. We all know even Harley Davidson received their criticism about early designs. 

[EmpireofDerp]

Looks like a Klingon design, you're not supposed to interfere with the native technological development of other civilizations. It's the Prime Directive. 

[DEATH_INC.]

5 hours ago, Randy300XC said:

You did a fantastic job to this point. Don’t stop sharing. We all know even Harley Davidson received their criticism about early designs. 

When did that change?

[Terry Hay]

Great Job Laurie

Bernie was here today with the beast. Gordon Gleave rode it and was speechless.....Too much to take in, in one short ride. We have a rather gnarly rock section on our enduro loop which the bike dealt with effortlessly. It messed with his thoughts completely.

I feel I missed the boat with the shock. It was a prototype concept that we had sat on the shelf for years without trying. Bernie convinced me to put it together and it was a real eye opener.......should have done it 10 years ago. I have to machine up a preload adjuster for the new shock on the Berg. Gotta love the guy's enthusiasm.

Kudos to you

Edited November 21, 2020 by Terry Hay

[kcposty]

10 hours ago, Randy300XC said:

You did a fantastic job to this point. Don’t stop sharing. We all know even Harley Davidson received their criticism about early designs. 

harley continues to earn its criticism to this day

[kcposty]

11 hours ago, Kinematics said:

I cant confirm or deny any of what you said...certainly it sounds plausible for the most part.

Everything I have said in my posts is stuff I know for certain based on feedback received or results we have achieved so far.....none of it is bullshit.......Pineys questions were questions which I cant yet quantify and answer and do not really care about at this stage......to answer him would be bullshit.........I am still busy proving what I have set out to do.....its only once you have nailed what you want a design to do that you can then figure what it isnt good at and then solve those issues.

I find there is too much negativity from people and I have a short fuse for it these days....and people have to realize that this isnt going to be forced upon anybody...if you dont like it....dont buy or ride it.

Anyways....the Australasian Dirt Bike Magazine Feature is maybe due out early Dec or Jan...It is available as an online digital purchase I believe.

dont worry about Piney he lives on the dark side, negativity and pointing out opportunity for risk his elixir. 

[Piney Woods]

18 hours ago, DEATH_INC. said:

Bloody Aussies 

Piney,  I think it'd be not that bad. If you look at the system, the links will actually do less work than a rear arm/link, so will be at worst no more maintenance than those, and should be much less. The shock will again (for the same reason) last much longer between services. I'd imagine unless it was really rough it'd barely even get hot. As for the mythical 'average' bloke, well, they all seem happy enough to ride fourstrokes, so complexity won't mean much as long as it's reliable.

The only 'iffy' bit I can see on the whole system would be the little steering links, as it looks like they have fairly small joints that may wear quickly (ish) and you may bend them in a big getoff?

The potential for this setup in high speed desert/XC conditions would be huge, all those things you don't see 'till the last minute would be handled so much better (at least by the front). Even trail riding it would allow you to run the 'normal' fork soft, and you still have the shock when you need it for any unexpected bigger stuff. Same with MX, shorting doubles, slap downs from grabbing the rear brake, even charging whoops could all be much better with this setup. Be great to see it on a SX track.

Tuning knowledge will be like everything new, you'll need to spend some time to learn it. But no different from going from girders to tele forks, then from damper rods to cartridge, closed cartridge etc. And because you have a 'separate' dual system the tuning potential is much greater.

Hopefully Kinematics will come back and confirm this, or at least tell Me if I'm talking a load of rubbish.

?? It does sound great so far. I didn't make any negative statement. General questions from a laymans viewpoint. Everyone is going nuts over light bikes now and crucifying those deemed too heavy. With many touting the air forks weight savings, seeing this for the first time the additional weight on the front end made me wonder. Just asking folks,,,just asking.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Piney Woods

[EmpireofDerp]

23 minutes ago, Piney Woods said:

?? It does sound great so far. I didn't make any negative statement. General questions from a laymans viewpoint. Everyone is going nuts over light bikes now and crucifying those deemed too heavy. With many touting the air forks weight savings, seeing this for the first time the additional weight on the front end made me wonder. Just asking folks,,,just asking.

I'm sure there's no downside at all to putting a nice big steel spring as high on the chassis as possible. It must be titanium. 

[kcposty]

Leading link front suspensions are weird the first time you ride one. No front brake dive, if anything the front rises.  With this hybrid offering supple consistent geometry that can isolate braking forces it would have a different feel, less deflection?

[Kinematics]

9 hours ago, Terry Hay said:

Great Job Laurie

Bernie was here today with the beast. Gordon Gleave rode it and was speechless.....Too much to take in, in one short ride. We have a rather gnarly rock section on our enduro loop which the bike dealt with effortlessly. It messed with his thoughts completely.

I feel I missed the boat with the shock. It was a prototype concept that we had sat on the shelf for years without trying. Bernie convinced me to put it together and it was a real eye opener.......should have done it 10 years ago. I have to machine up a preload adjuster for the new shock on the Berg. Gotta love the guy's enthusiasm.

Kudos to you

Many thanks Terry
yeah every single person that has ridden the bike has experienced a similar revelation ...its quite funny sometimes  ?

That rear shock you built is def part of the reason why Geoff and Ben liked the bike so much as a whole...it seems to compliment the front quite well.
If we do some conversions on that vintage of bikes we may be asking you to build more ?
Yes Bernie is an enthusiast ( as well a great guy ) and he is the kind of guy that will use and appreciate my new front suspension the most....and there are plenty more guys like him out there ?

 

[Kinematics]

5 hours ago, HeavyRotationClassic said:

I'm sure there's no downside at all to putting a nice big steel spring as high on the chassis as possible. It must be titanium. 

Its not as bad as it looks.....where that small shock/spring  sits is where the stock "steel" steering head was sitting originally.....

[Kinematics]

4 hours ago, kcposty said:

Leading link front suspensions are weird the first time you ride one. No front brake dive, if anything the front rises.  With this hybrid offering supple consistent geometry that can isolate braking forces it would have a different feel, less deflection?

This is the thing tho....I went to a great deal of trouble to make sure the fronts steering and general feel didnt deviate too much from a normal bike we are all used to....I didnt want the rider to have to adjust to the bike in order to ride it.
One of the biggest surprises "all" people experience when first riding this bike is how normal it feels and steers...they were expecting something completely different based on its completely different looks.
Where it does deviate from a normal bike is when they start really "riding" it.....it does not deflect off rocks/roots/ruts like a normal bike...its steering is abnormally stable and reassuring...you feel like you can attack stuff which before you would shy from...its just confidence inspiring.

[rjg]

Hey fella, just wondering how the pursuit is going?

I saw this and thought about you. They say it feels very awkward until its trail ridden and then it shines through compared to a conventional fork system. I would love to try it out one day.

 

[Kinematics]

6 hours ago, rjg said:

Hey fella, just wondering how the pursuit is going?

I saw this and thought about you. They say it feels very awkward until its trail ridden and then it shines through compared to a conventional fork system. I would love to try it out one day.

 

Hey mate....the project is coming along well....looks like the Australasian dirt bike magazine test ride article on the front suspension I mentioned wont be published until maybe April/May....DOH!..
Based on the positive feedback on the test rides of the Hossack/telefork hybrid...showing I am correct with my design approach....and based on feedback from peeps in general...I am presently looking at a design based on a Girder fork/telefork Hybrid....this design keeps the original bikes steering head so no frame modifications necessary...the new front suspension will basicly bolt straight on...it will keep most of all the Kinematic and Geometric advantages of the previous Hossack/telefork design we tested...but the Girder fork/telefork will also be a bit simpler...no steering linkage is needed etc.
So the idea may be to offer two designs...the Hossack/Telefork design would be maybe for more hardcore competition based use as it should be the more superior of the two.
The Girder/telefork design as a more simple bolt on for the Recreational rider...but still with considerable performance advantages....by not modifying the frame it will keep the bike legal in terms of Homologation and design standards/rules etc....with this the front end may be transferable from bike to bike with minimum mods.
Currently working on building and fitting the Girder/telefork onto the front of a new 2021 KTM350 EXC-F for testing....looks good I reckon.

As for the link Mountain bike suspension pictured....Its a great effort....Mmmm but I think there is still room for improvement.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Kinematics

[obelisk]

Your KX450F  girder video is cool. Without stabilized camera you can see the fender tracking pretty much parallel to the track while the wheel is flying up and down.   Reminds me of a Baja trophy truck

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by obelisk

[Kinematics]

Ch

1 hour ago, obelisk said:

Your KX450F  girder video is cool. Without stabilized camera you can see the fender tracking pretty much parallel to the track while the wheel is flying up and down.   Reminds me of a Baja trophy truck

 

Yes...My latest Girder/telefork design is a continuation of this KX450F Girder design...the KX450F Girder design was a experiment  to see how it would perform in certain key areas.....it worked very well apart from being a bit heavy and bulky and having a tad too much steered inertia...my latest design going on the KTM is much more refined and will be lighter and more compact.