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WP Offering closed catridges for XPLOR forks

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49 minutes ago, weantright said:

You also can go the opposite route keeping the air side and replacing the chamber cartridge with Ohlins, KYB, CV,,,,,  

Never thought of that 

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4 hours ago, mog said:

Never thought of that 

One of the originators was WP and the AER CV.  Rode a bike with air CV and without, hands down spring was much better feel. Noticeably more front wheel traction. I’ll take the extra 1 lbs for the spring. Now many tuners are doing this with any spring cartridge of your choice. Air pressure is now around 65-90 psi. Lower pressures seem to help the air portion of the fork greatly. 

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25 minutes ago, weantright said:

One of the originators was WP and the AER CV.  Rode a bike with air CV and without, hands down spring was much better feel. Noticeably more front wheel traction. I’ll take the extra 1 lbs for the spring. Now many tuners are doing this with any spring cartridge of your choice. Air pressure is now around 65-90 psi. Lower pressures seem to help the air portion of the fork greatly. 

 

 

The advantages are clear and the weight is nothing like a spring conversion

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On 10/28/2020 at 10:14 AM, weantright said:

with AER is that you must fall inside a specific weight and skill level to use in stock form.

The most rudimentary element to every suspension known to man.

Difficult to find much negative feedback regarding the AER from top notch racers to weekend warriors alike.

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I come from mountain biking where the air vs coil debate has raged for years. I've also had the opportunity to race at a high level and work directly with suspension engineers. I only mention this because I've had a behind the scenes look at exactly what a force curve looks like between air and coil, and have a strong understanding of how a modern air spring works from a tuning perspective.

For most OEMs, if they can develop an air spring that is akin to the best mountain bike air spring, it makes a lot of sense. The ability to change spring rate with a pump is massive to helping most people get their stuff setup properly out of the box. I'd wager a whole bunch of people never get on the right spring rate, and their bike never rides quiet like it should. I know, everyone should get a tuner involved, but the goal should be for an OEM to provide a bike that will work with minimal wrenching from the showroom floor.

Where the WP air spring currently lacks is in the negative spring department. Simply, this needs to be expanded (which supposedly they did for 2021). From there I'd argue lowering oil levels should provide what most people are looking for if you like a coil spring. EG: You are relying on the bottom out control an air spring naturally gives you, yet you still get a linear feel for the first 3/4s (ish). Another killer idea would be to make the negative chamber tunable from a volume perspective. This would allow people to tune the sensitivity of the spring off the top.

There is no denying a coil spring is more simple, and the linear nature, when coupled with how we utilize oil levels for ramp up creates bottom out control that we are very familiar with. 

World Cup DH riders push suspension just as hard as a top moto rider. Different sport, I know, but literally 95% of them are on air forks. They work. This is one area (maybe the only area) where moto can borrow from mtb.

Just my $0.02

 



 

Edited by Jeff Brines

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1 hour ago, Jeff Brines said:

I come from mountain biking where the air vs coil debate has waged for years. I've also had the opportunity to race at a high level and work directly with suspension engineers. I only mention this because I've had a behind the scenes look at exactly what a force curve looks like between air and coil, and have a strong understanding of how a modern air spring works from a tuning perspective.

For most OEMs, if they can develop an air spring that is akin to the best mountain bike air spring, it makes a lot of sense. The ability to change spring rate with a pump is massive to helping most people get their stuff setup properly out of the box. I'd wager a whole bunch of people never get on the right spring rate, and their bike never rides quiet like it should. I know, everyone should get a tuner involved, but the goal should be for an OEM to provide a bike that will work with minimal wrenching from the showroom floor.

Where the WP air spring currently lacks is in the negative spring department. Simply, this needs to be expanded (which supposedly they did for 2021). From there I'd argue lowering oil levels should provide what most people are looking for if you like a coil spring. EG: You are relying on the bottom out control an air spring naturally gives you, yet you still get a linear feel for the first 3/4s (ish). Another killer idea would be to make the negative chamber tunable from a volume perspective. This would allow people to tune the sensitivity of the spring off the top.

There is no denying a coil spring is more simple, and the linear nature, when coupled with how we utilize oil levels for ramp up creates bottom out control that we are very familiar with. 

World Cup DH riders push suspension just as hard as a top moto rider. Different sport, I know, but literally 95% of them are on air forks. They work. This is one area (maybe the only area) where moto can borrow from mtb.

Just my $0.02

 



 

Take a look at MX Tech AER cap design. Tunable air chambers  for what you just mentioned. 
https://mx-tech.com/shop/fork-parts/mxt-a48-r/

 

 

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2 minutes ago, weantright said:

Take a look at MX Tech AER cap design. Tunable air chambers  for what you just mentioned. 
https://mx-tech.com/shop/fork-parts/mxt-a48-r/

 

 

I tried to buy one, they no longer are selling them. I wanted to see exactly how it works, too - haven't seen the internals. I love the idea, but I'm pretty sure it does not allow negative chamber tuning.

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You have adjustment in volume based on riding type. Then you have pressure setting to tune these chambers via pump. Together it works really well especially with their mid valve and a revalve. Mx Tech is focusing on their Lucky systems and National shock. This cap kit is a direct competitor to the Lucky’s netting very close same end results. Lucky’s are said to be better but at 2+x cost. 

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18 minutes ago, weantright said:

You have adjustment in volume based on riding type. Then you have pressure setting to tune these chambers via pump. Together it works really well especially with their mid valve and a revalve. Mx Tech is focusing on their Lucky systems and National shock. This cap kit is a direct competitor to the Lucky’s netting very close same end results. Lucky’s are said to be better but at 2+x cost. 

Roger. So yeah, no negative chamber adjustment which is really the big driver to how much an air spring really replicates a coil. EDIT: I'm using their mid-valve/revalve. Pretty happy with it.

Edited by Jeff Brines

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I'm sure it does do the negative chamber,and you can modify the STD Aer to do that 

 

The aer pro also does it 

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25 minutes ago, mog said:

I'm sure it does do the negative chamber,and you can modify the STD Aer to do that 

 

The aer pro also does it 

Not according to what I've read. Its just a multi stage positive chamber setup. How else are people modifying the negative? I don't see how you could do this without changing the main air piston or the outer tube.

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The pro fork uses a schrader valve at the bottom of the airleg ,the fork is designed to run it , it's just blanked off 

 

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Very interesting. I'd love to be able to add that to the normal AER. Not possible without a new outer tube though (the outer tube has a dent that equalizes the two chambers)

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20 minutes ago, Jeff Brines said:

Very interesting. I'd love to be able to add that to the normal AER. Not possible without a new outer tube though (the outer tube has a dent that equalizes the two chambers)

Yes exactly 

 

Here is a picture of the pressures they run 

 

 

IMG_20201030_154328.jpg

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1 hour ago, mog said:

I'm sure it does do the negative chamber,and you can modify the STD Aer to do that 

 

The aer pro also does it 

And again not stock AER. Doing this opens much better performance that would win championship at a higher level as you post often. Can’t see these type of mods easily implying stock AER to the unknowing. 

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1 minute ago, weantright said:

And again not stock AER. Doing this opens much better performance that would win championship at a higher level as you post often. Can’t see these type of mods easily implying stock AER to the unknowing. 

I never once said STD Aer does it ,but ive seen many tuners convert it to dual pressure 

 

The pics were on here when the aer first came out 

 

I've had an aer for every year since 2016 

 

I have rode most forks available apart from cone valves 

 

I was one of the first to add float to an aer and one of the first to get the right spring rate for the new linkage , I Revalved my aer around 5 times before most had even seen one 

 

Please accept I know something about what I am taking about 

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Guys....he said he would love to be able to add one ,but it would require a new tube ,I said yes exactly 

 

What's the issue?

 

 

The pressures is from the aer pro ,I thought that was clear enough ? 

 

Edited by mog

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A friend of mine has a set of the Xplor pro on the way for his 21 XCW 300. Hoping to try them out before the snow flies. He’s a fast guy so I’m curious how they will work for him. And when I say fast I mean like next level fast😂

He was running a KX at the last ISDE, bit of a change for sure. 

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