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supercross JGR Suzuki closing up shop??

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15 minutes ago, ah665 said:

Right. And that's fine. But I'm saying if that is the case, then I just accept that they will not have a presence at the races anymore. History shows you either invest or get left behind, in this sport/market. But if they choose not to do that, then they are basically admitting that they are willing to get left behind. It happens. But typically it's usually when a sport is in decline, like when the Factories dropped out of ATV racing  in the early 90s and again after the recession in 08. But I don't currently see SX/MX as a dying sport, but of course everything has taken a hit to some degree, due to Covid. But this was a long time coming for Suzuki. 

A lot of great MX bike manufactures were listed in this thread....not Harley....and where are they now? The Japanese killed them off. History is just repeating itself with different players 

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1 hour ago, ah665 said:

The same reason that any team would. When you are selling racing motorcycles and there are zero teams and zero privateers with your bikes on the gate, how is that good marketing for the company? If anything KTM (Husky/Gasgas) as of late shows you what happens when you do sink money, effort and R&D into your bikes and race teams. Like I said, it all goes hand-in-hand.

So then racing is a good showcase then, right?     Honda sells the most bikes, but they haven't won a 450 title in quite a while.    Racing results don't necessarily equate to sales.  Or do they?   

KTM, like Kawasaki, has excellent support and sponsorship of of younger riders.   They grow up on KTM's which probably means they will have a love and loyalty for KTM as adults.     I'm no dirtbike marketing expert, but if I had limited amount of money to invest in racing, I would focus more on local amateur and junior events.      

Old fat guys (like me), with a little extra money to buy a $10K dirtbike, might be more likely to buy what they see every week when they are riding, not what some 22yr old factory sponsored pro is riding. 

 

And... is Suzuki really behind with their bikes?   What technology does Honda have that Suzuki doesn't have?

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21 minutes ago, Just_a_trail_rider said:

So then racing is a good showcase then, right?     Honda sells the most bikes, but they haven't won a 450 title in quite a while.    Racing results don't necessarily equate to sales.  Or do they?   

KTM, like Kawasaki, has excellent support and sponsorship of of younger riders.   They grow up on KTM's which probably means they will have a love and loyalty for KTM as adults.     I'm no dirtbike marketing expert, but if I had limited amount of money to invest in racing, I would focus more on local amateur and junior events.      

Old fat guys (like me), with a little extra money to buy a $10K dirtbike, might be more likely to buy what they see every week when they are riding, not what some 22yr old factory sponsored pro is riding. 

 

And... is Suzuki really behind with their bikes?   What technology does Honda have that Suzuki doesn't have?

Ok I think you are skewing what I'm trying to say, for the sake to prove a point. I didn't say winning a 450 title. I said big picture, everything adds up. Effort, money into your motorcycles and your teams. There is a brand new Honda 450 this year correct? A completely new platform. Also, is there anyone who think Factory Honda is a bad team or that they do not try? No. No one. Suzuki has done very little to update their bikes, have very little presence in the sport. The only way to come back from that is to invest, like what KTM has done. It appears as Suzuki does not see it to be worth the money to do that in this sport/market. And that's fine, but don't be surprised when they are left behind. 

And is Suzuki left behind with their bikes? How aren't they? Look at resale values. Look at how many you see on a pro gate. It very obvious. Does that mean they are bad bikes? Of course not. But there has been very little advancement. I don't need to list every aspect, as we all know and it's been discussed over and over. Also, at my local tracks I see a lot of orange, blue and red. 

Edited by ah665

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Hows the Nascar team doing? Never followed it but you can be sure if they aren't putting up the numbers the MX division is first on the cutting board. Maybe they'd be better off going GNCC racing

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44 minutes ago, Just_a_trail_rider said:

So then racing is a good showcase then, right?     Honda sells the most bikes, but they haven't won a 450 title in quite a while.    Racing results don't necessarily equate to sales.  Or do they?   

KTM, like Kawasaki, has excellent support and sponsorship of of younger riders.   They grow up on KTM's which probably means they will have a love and loyalty for KTM as adults.     I'm no dirtbike marketing expert, but if I had limited amount of money to invest in racing, I would focus more on local amateur and junior events.      

Old fat guys (like me), with a little extra money to buy a $10K dirtbike, might be more likely to buy what they see every week when they are riding, not what some 22yr old factory sponsored pro is riding. 

 

And... is Suzuki really behind with their bikes?   What technology does Honda have that Suzuki doesn't have?

Honda has won THREE 450 MX1 titles in the last 4 years.  That counts for something.

Honda has had multiple somethings new, which is something Suzuki doesn't.  Doesn't matter if it is better or not, if you aren't making changes for the better, or at least appearing to make changes for the better, people start to look past you.  The other three Japanese brands are all at least looking to appear to be trying to bring the fight to the Austrian juggernaut and regularly updating their bikes (and making them look different when they do a major update).  Suzuki blatantly is NOT doing this.

History also has a LOT to do with it.  Honda has been relevant since day one, and still has the cachet with a lot of riders (even pros) who want to ride for HRC.  Suzuki hasn't really been consistently relevant since the early 80s if we are being honest, and their bikes only looked good for a few years in the 2000s when proven past winners got on their bikes and continued to win (i.e. it wasn't the bike, it was having Ricky, James, Chad, etc... riding them).  Again, Honda hasn't had success with a 450 title in the US for over a decade, but that isn't for a lack of trying while still getting wins here and there and having an active team and riders: I think someone could argue that Ken Roczen alone has more pull individually than everyone on a Suzuki in 2020 combined.

I mean, in the late 80s/early 90s I only paid attention to Suzuki to see what Guy Cooper would try to jump and how much of Larry Ward's mullet was hanging out the back of his helmet.  Then we all got to watch McGrath NOT win a title on a Suzuki.  And then watch Albee crash his brains out on a Suzuki.  After that, it was really dry until RC got dropped by Honda and needed a new truck to pit out of so he could continue to kick everyone's butt...

I am NOT saying that the Suzuki is a bad bike, it isn't.  It is great for 98% of the people (maybe even more) that could and would buy it.  But unfortunately, perception is reality.

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32 minutes ago, eastreich said:

Honda has won THREE 450 MX1 titles in the last 4 years.  That counts for something.

Honda has had multiple somethings new, which is something Suzuki doesn't.  Doesn't matter if it is better or not, if you aren't making changes for the better, or at least appearing to make changes for the better, people start to look past you.  The other three Japanese brands are all at least looking to appear to be trying to bring the fight to the Austrian juggernaut and regularly updating their bikes (and making them look different when they do a major update).  Suzuki blatantly is NOT doing this.

History also has a LOT to do with it.  Honda has been relevant since day one, and still has the cachet with a lot of riders (even pros) who want to ride for HRC.  Suzuki hasn't really been consistently relevant since the early 80s if we are being honest, and their bikes only looked good for a few years in the 2000s when proven past winners got on their bikes and continued to win (i.e. it wasn't the bike, it was having Ricky, James, Chad, etc... riding them).  Again, Honda hasn't had success with a 450 title in the US for over a decade, but that isn't for a lack of trying while still getting wins here and there and having an active team and riders: I think someone could argue that Ken Roczen alone has more pull individually than everyone on a Suzuki in 2020 combined.

I mean, in the late 80s/early 90s I only paid attention to Suzuki to see what Guy Cooper would try to jump and how much of Larry Ward's mullet was hanging out the back of his helmet.  Then we all got to watch McGrath NOT win a title on a Suzuki.  And then watch Albee crash his brains out on a Suzuki.  After that, it was really dry until RC got dropped by Honda and needed a new truck to pit out of so he could continue to kick everyone's butt...

I am NOT saying that the Suzuki is a bad bike, it isn't.  It is great for 98% of the people (maybe even more) that could and would buy it.  But unfortunately, perception is reality.

 

23 minutes ago, mog said:

The rmz has won with kr

And Suzuki won the Championship with Greg Albertyn too.

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26 minutes ago, mog said:

The rmz has won with kr

 

2 minutes ago, MANIAC998 said:

 

And Suzuki won the Championship with Greg Albertyn too.

Ken would have won the title on any bike, he won with the KTM as well, and even being as hurt as he has been still puts in good results on the Honda.  It wasn't the RMZ that won Ken the title.

Greg won a lot more BEFORE he came here, so I would argue it was a sign of how bad the Suzuki was compared to the other three Japanese bikes in the mid/late 90s.  He should have cleaned house outdoors.  I will say that then (as now) the Suzukis were the best looking bike on the track.  They even had DeCoster then and couldn't get it together consistently until RC gifted Suzuki his presence.

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Just now, eastreich said:

 

Ken would have won the title on any bike, he won with the KTM as well, and even being as hurt as he has been still puts in good results on the Honda.  It wasn't the RMZ that won Ken the title.

Greg won a lot more BEFORE he came here, so I would argue it was a sign of how bad the Suzuki was compared to the other three Japanese bikes in the mid/late 90s.  He should have cleaned house outdoors.  I will say that then (as now) the Suzukis were the best looking bike on the track.  They even had DeCoster then and couldn't get it together consistently until RC gifted Suzuki his presence.

But you can say that with many champions. Tomac would have won MX on any bike, Dungey and Poto would have won on any bike etc. Maybe Webb needs the KTM to win... or maybe he just needed the KTM team structure and training. But for the most part... the guys like Tomac, Roczen, RC etc… will win on any bike.

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10 minutes ago, eastreich said:

 

Ken would have won the title on any bike, he won with the KTM as well, and even being as hurt as he has been still puts in good results on the Honda.  It wasn't the RMZ that won Ken the title.

Greg won a lot more BEFORE he came here, so I would argue it was a sign of how bad the Suzuki was compared to the other three Japanese bikes in the mid/late 90s.  He should have cleaned house outdoors.  I will say that then (as now) the Suzukis were the best looking bike on the track.  They even had DeCoster then and couldn't get it together consistently until RC gifted Suzuki his presence.

LaRocco, Emig, McGrath, Henry are all formidable opponents Outdoors. Albertyn had his hands full, with or without a bike being subpar.

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Just now, Zinergy said:

But you can say that with many champions. Tomac would have won MX on any bike, Dungey and Poto would have won on any bike etc. Maybe Webb needs the KTM to win... or maybe he just needed the KTM team structure and training. But for the most part... the guys like Tomac, Roczen, RC etc… will win on any bike.

Absolutely.  But also, there is also the obvious outside appearance that KTM, Kawasaki, Honda, and Yamaha (to a lesser extent with some of they past factory team history, but Star is definitely a go getter) WANT to win, they WANT to make a better bike, they WANT to get you to buy one.

Where does Suzuki fit in that sequence of events?  They win when they get a rider that won elsewhere already but otherwise unless an upper tier pro rider can't get a ride anywhere else they aren't choosing to be on an RMZ, they don't appear to try by any stretch of the imagination to really want to win (no true factory team in how long?), they sure don't seem to give a rat's you-know-what about making a better bike (appearance of BNG for a decade), and their marketing only seems to get you to buy one when you can get the proverbial smoking $5-6k OTD pricing.  No one is paying retail for an RMZ, yet I know KTM, Husky, Beta, Honda, and Yamaha dealers around me can charge full retail for every new bike they have and they sell them all.

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7 minutes ago, MANIAC998 said:

LaRocco, Emig, McGrath, Henry are all formidable opponents Outdoors. Albertyn had his hands full, with or without a bike being subpar.

LaRocco couldn't get a start to save his life, and his outdoor peak was 1994.  Too inconsistent, and always starting from behind.

Although Emig did win the 1996 and 1997 titles, to me he was still an underachiever.  He should have been able to take more titles from McGrath indoors other than when MC was on, wait for it, an RM250.  Dude had other interests (as did most of the riders then!).

McGrath was already eyeing an SX only future.  But he could definitely lay it down outdoors when he wanted to.

I will give you Doug.  Dude was a beast.

Albee probably would have done better regardless if he could have made it through SX seasons unscathed.

And then that little red-headed kid showed up on a KX250 the year after Albee won his lone US title and ruined it for everyone.

 

 

Let me add to this, that in the actual real matters of motocross, LaRocco reached a peak in 1993 that no one else will ever attain.  The last 500cc smoker champion, the last of the true men of American motocross...

Edited by eastreich
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2 hours ago, mog said:

The rmz has won with kr

James smoked everyone on that bike 

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33 minutes ago, redrider144 said:

image.jpeg.6b12b448a296f9d369f86ed8eb14f61f.jpeg

A MART Rock river or March banks teammate next year. He will be on Blue, both brothers.

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1 hour ago, 777654321 said:

A MART Rock river or March banks teammate next year. He will be on Blue, both brothers.

Could you put that into coherent English? 🤣

Edited by Piney Woods
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5 minutes ago, Piney Woods said:

Could you put that into coherent English? 🤣

Alex Martin is gonna ride a blue bike either for rock river ot the training facility Marchbanks rides for. 

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