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motocross Kenny won on a stock bike....

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15 minutes ago, ah665 said:

I was going to say there is no way that bike was stock. But there was some sort of friction towards the end there, having to do with the bike, if I remember correctly?

There was friction the whole time. Kenny sent his father home due to all the drama he was causing

I'm sure the team had issues but when Ken's father flew back home things started changing for the better. The guy seemed like the quintessential little league baseball daddy    

 

Edited by MotorBoatin
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7 minutes ago, MotorBoatin said:

There was friction the whole time. Kenny sent his father home due to all the drama he was causing

I'm sure the team had issues but when Ken's father flew back home things started changing for the better  

 

Ya true, but I was referring to drama about the bike specifically. But I remember the stuff with his dad too. 

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10 hours ago, mxaniac said:

According to Sleeter the factory bike was so jacked KR went and bought his own stick RM and then his mechanic changed it up as necessary.  Sounds a bit preposterous, but I've seen stranger things happen.

It’s true, he bought bike because he didn’t want to go testing in California, he wanted to stay in Florida to ride. 

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59 minutes ago, ah665 said:

I was going to say there is no way that bike was stock. But there was some sort of friction towards the end there, having to do with the bike, if I remember correctly?

They had a problem with suspension in the beginning because Ken didn’t want to test as much as they wanted him to.  

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11 hours ago, Drop-Bear said:

That's rubbish as well. KTM200's are the evidence.

KTM abandoned the 200 though.

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1 hour ago, GBow521 said:

It’s true, he bought bike because he didn’t want to go testing in California, he wanted to stay in Florida to ride. 

Sleeters overall contention is that some teams like JGR and Yamaha have tons of capability they've hired, so they have to justify the capability by making tons of custom parts.  These guys make a ton of components, and build a factory machine that isn't really based on stock.  By that he means instead of improving what's lacking with stock, they just change everything they can.  The rider then ends up with something very removed from what the factory and the test riders developed.  Basic troubleshooting is to change 1 thing at a time.  The factory starts with everything changed and now as a "system" it's a disaster.

This sounds entirely possible to me.  It sounds typical based on how they're funded, and more than possible if you have a group of component experts without a system architect.  Do you think this has a ring of truth to it?

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The way I heard it, factory teams keep leaving stuff that needs to be changed, and changing stuff that should be left alone.  The riders know what they want on the bike but the mechanics and teams think they know better.  So the rider never gets everything they need to succeed.  Seriously, the mechanic and the manager aren't pounding out 20 hard laps on the bike so why should they decide how it's set up?  While some riders do whatever they are told, other riders get sick of this crap, get sick of riding a bike that doesn't do what they need.  So they go out and buy a brand new stock bike on their own dime (proper brand of course LOL), they change the settings how they like, they ride it, and they are finally happy... on a stock bike.  Again it's just what I heard  🤣  And if it is true, it's amazing that so much money and resources are poured into these teams and the person actually riding the machine isn't given what they need.  SMH.  I wonder if this same thing happens in F1 where the team budgets are much, much bigger.

Edited by DGXR

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Just gonna drop these off here

 

"Yeah its gotta be the frames flex characteristics, those Austrians will have their work cut out for them the will have to change all of their philosophies and production processes in a bid to keep up"

"The honda just has soo much power that even stock, the others are struggling to keep up with factory engines"

 

 

lol see what I did there

B)

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2 hours ago, mxaniac said:

Sleeters overall contention is that some teams like JGR and Yamaha have tons of capability they've hired, so they have to justify the capability by making tons of custom parts.  These guys make a ton of components, and build a factory machine that isn't really based on stock.  By that he means instead of improving what's lacking with stock, they just change everything they can.  The rider then ends up with something very removed from what the factory and the test riders developed.  Basic troubleshooting is to change 1 thing at a time.  The factory starts with everything changed and now as a "system" it's a disaster.

This sounds entirely possible to me.  It sounds typical based on how they're funded, and more than possible if you have a group of component experts without a system architect.  Do you think this has a ring of truth to it?

uhhhhh,

ok cheif,

you do know they cant change the frame right?

and almost all race bikes even the most basic have, different wheels, forks, shock, and tripple clamps......

so you saying that a carbon tank, some titanium peg brackets, and moving some other dickey doos around is making as big a difference as the stuff above?

i dont know...

the only thing i can think of causing the problems your listing would be linkages

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12 minutes ago, EnglertRacing said:

the only thing i can think of causing the problems your listing would be linkages

Insisting on super stiff factory billet triple clamps, possibly 52mm forks that are super stiff.

Larger diameter shock shaft reduces oil volume, can perhaps have undesirable consequences.

They can make the frame stiffer with motor mounts.  I don't think frame gusseting has been a thing for a long time.  But aluminum glide plates (depending on mounting) can stiffen the frame as well.

Edited by redrider144

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Just now, redrider144 said:

Insisting on super stiff factory billet triple clamps, possibly 52mm forks that are super stiff.

They can make the frame stiffer with motor mounts.  I don't think frame gusseting has been a thing for a long time.  But aluminum glide plates (depending on mounting) can stiffen the frame as well.

true, but don't the guys with the $$ have different things to try in regards to these parts?

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I heard he was using stock air in his tires.

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17 minutes ago, EnglertRacing said:

uhhhhh,

ok cheif,

you do know they cant change the frame right?

and almost all race bikes even the most basic have, different wheels, forks, shock, and tripple clamps......

so you saying that a carbon tank, some titanium peg brackets, and moving some other dickey doos around is making as big a difference as the stuff above?

i dont know...

the only thing i can think of causing the problems your listing would be linkages

Those guys can tell how many hours are on a frame.  They can feel a skid plate.  They can feel how tight the motor mounts are.  So changing out forks, triple clamps, making skid plates, messing with the linkages, putting on magnesium components, making different motor mounts etc. makes a big difference to these guys.  So feel smug all you want in your condescending response, the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in you.

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39 minutes ago, DGXR said:

The way I heard it, factory teams keep leaving stuff that needs to be changed, and changing stuff that should be left alone.  The riders know what they want on the bike but the mechanics and teams think they know better.  So the rider never gets everything they need to succeed.  Seriously, the mechanic and the manager aren't pounding out 20 hard laps on the bike so why should they decide how it's set up?  While some riders do whatever they are told, other riders get sick of this crap, get sick of riding a bike that doesn't do what they need.  So they go out and buy a brand new stock bike on their own dime (proper brand of course LOL), they change the settings how they like, they ride it, and they are finally happy... on a stock bike.  Again it's just what I heard  🤣  And if it is true, it's amazing that so much money and resources are poured into these teams and the person actually riding the machine isn't given what they need.  SMH.  I wonder if this same thing happens in F1 where the team budgets are much, much bigger.

While this is all true, sometimes it is a 2-way street. With my side endeavors, we were helping some pro-level riders and I just know from the guys who were wrenching and building the bikes, that sometimes the riders always want to change every little thing after a practice or race and end up themselves getting farther and farther away from an effective set-up. SO I'm sure the same thing can happen with the Factory teams.

Like if you have a guy that his whole life revolves around knowing every little detail with suspension, sometimes he knows better than a rider who doesn't even know how to (sometimes) change a tire.

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6 minutes ago, ah665 said:

While this is all true, sometimes it is a 2-way street. With my side endeavors, we were helping some pro-level riders and I just know from the guys who were wrenching and building the bikes, that sometimes the riders always want to change every little thing after a practice or race and end up themselves getting farther and farther away from an effective set-up. SO I'm sure the same thing can happen with the Factory teams.

Like if you have a guy that his whole life revolves around knowing every little detail with suspension, sometimes he knows better than a rider who doesn't even know how to (sometimes) change a tire.

Good post.  Yes I definitely agree you shouldn't change too many things at once, even if it's what the rider asks for.  Ideally you tweak a little here, ride it, tweak a little there, ride it, etc. continuing until everything is just right.  It takes some time but the results are much better.  And even after all this time and effort is invested in the "ideal" setup for a rider, some settings must continue to be changed to suit the track or trail conditions.  

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3 minutes ago, mxaniac said:

Those guys can tell how many hours are on a frame.  They can feel a skid plate.  They can feel how tight the motor mounts are.  So changing out forks, triple clamps, making skid plates, messing with the linkages, putting on magnesium components, making different motor mounts etc. makes a big difference to these guys.  So feel smug all you want in your condescending response, the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in you.

Those are standard things that they have been messing with since what the early 90s? (well i guess many of the people who have been messing with that stuff have come and gone... but shouldn't the effects be understood shouldn't the industry veterans maybe guide the testing processes of these components)

PS i have always thought the skid plate thing was a bit dubious for torsional, lateral or longitudinal flex....

I read your post like you were either 

talking about someone like JGR making too many silly things, for example, battery boxes, air boxes, ecu holders, and tons of trick shit bits and bobs that hardly matters, and somehow getting lost due to that which seems rather improbable.

or that you were implying they are extensively modifying or scratch building the frames which is no longer allowed.....

back to the typical chassis modifications

and if the stuff that the original design team came up with was so great (I mean it is sometimes great but priced for wide consumption) then why does nearly EVERYONE F with it? and if its SOOOO dialed and engineered to work together say it was perfect, what happens to it when Fast guy wants to and needs to go from 48mm to 50mm forks wouldn't that just ruin everything else?

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22 minutes ago, ah665 said:

While this is all true, sometimes it is a 2-way street. With my side endeavors, we were helping some pro-level riders and I just know from the guys who were wrenching and building the bikes, that sometimes the riders always want to change every little thing after a practice or race and end up themselves getting farther and farther away from an effective set-up. SO I'm sure the same thing can happen with the Factory teams.

Like if you have a guy that his whole life revolves around knowing every little detail with suspension, sometimes he knows better than a rider who doesn't even know how to (sometimes) change a tire.

sometimes people fetish about certain aspects of a setup, and can even end up ignoring another aspect that would have a much greater effect, it happens in all forms of motorsports.

the faster guys are the ones whos "fetishes" cover the most important factors.

 

an example would be someone fetishizing about skid plate mounting when their valving is out to lunch.... maybe work on that first....

while the guy who is lapping him doesn't give a dam about the skidplate, but has the suspension sorted.

Edited by EnglertRacing
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44 minutes ago, EnglertRacing said:

true, but don't the guys with the $$ have different things to try in regards to these parts?

I'm thinking it's a question of whether a given team does legit testing vs insisting on the rider using their "factory" bike where they've already decided what the rider should want.

Reading between the lines, I believe we've seen this sort of attitude on both the Kaw and Yamaha factory teams.

Tomac was struggling at odd times with the latest gen Kaw chassis (2018 SX I think?) , and it was clear to me that Tomac and Mike W were butting heads over the bike.

A lot of comments from Reed, Webb, & Barcia (& now Sleeter) have indicated that Yamaha factory team attitude was the same, until Webb left and won a SX title.  Attitude was, we know best, this is the factory bike, you ride it.  We know from Barcia that they completely started over with a stock bike & worked from there in the 2019 - 2020 offseason.

We know that RCH was fighting Ken over rear suspension as well:

"RCH admits that they fought Kenny over this shock setup for more than a year because they felt it was the opposite of what it should be. Over time, however, they learned that the way Kenny rode the bike made what was wrong in their eyes right in his. Riders have vastly different needs. Kyle was positive that Ricky Carmichael, who loved the dead rear-end feel, would hate Ken’s bike setup and vice versa."

Edited by redrider144
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45 minutes ago, mxaniac said:

Those guys can tell how many hours are on a frame.  They can feel a skid plate.  They can feel how tight the motor mounts are.  So changing out forks, triple clamps, making skid plates, messing with the linkages, putting on magnesium components, making different motor mounts etc. makes a big difference to these guys.  So feel smug all you want in your condescending response, the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in you.

I remember as a 16 year old being hell impressed when told that Marty Smith was testing tyres and came in after a lap on one rear telling the mechanic he had a flat.

They'd fitted a heavier four ply in place of his usual 2 ply.

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