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motocross Kenny won on a stock bike....

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7 hours ago, EnglertRacing said:

I suspect there is a lot of traction control involved which i find gross...

 

Traction control has been a thing on factory bikes since the 4 stroke came out. 
 

 Now it’s perfected in some very cool ways. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but the science behind it is cool.  

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2 hours ago, GBow521 said:

Factory ecu and transmissions are the biggest advantage to a factory team 

What is the transmission advantage?   I've heard some might run a 4 speed, and polishing and coatings.  Anything else?

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15 hours ago, mxaniac said:

I find it interesting that when Reed was running his own team he was leasing a factory ECU.  From everything I've been reading and hearing the ECU on a modern 4T is all the difference.  

Interesting. I was thinking the ECUs were all the same cores (Arm 7s maybe) or a DSP made by Denso or one of the known vendors with possibly different firmware and software.  Guess I am going to cut my old one open and see what is really in there.:D

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2 hours ago, mxaniac said:

What is the transmission advantage?   I've heard some might run a 4 speed, and polishing and coatings.  Anything else?

Strength, ratio selection, ease of shifting, 2,3,4 speeds, and no false neutrals. 

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30 minutes ago, Chaconne said:

Interesting. I was thinking the ECUs were all the same cores (Arm 7s maybe) or a DSP made by Denso or one of the known vendors with possibly different firmware and software.  Guess I am going to cut my old one open and see what is really in there.:D

Probably won't visually see much of a difference.

The biggest difference is what parameters/levels/degree of fineness can be changed inside a factory ECU (by the guys that know what they are doing) compared to a stock one.  Same as the differences (for me) in having my stock Husky ECU reprogrammed, vs what can be done with a Vortex (way more capability).  I am sure that the "factory" ECUs available to those parties have a similar upgrade in performance of the Vortex (in regards to what could be done) as the Vortex is to my stock ECU.

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Dixon Kawasaki in UK were using 3 speed boxes in their Cosworth engined MX2 GP 250's in 2015.

Bowman's comment about the number of speeds being used feeds into my theory about Tomac's legendary clutch.

I cant pick his shifts from video footage  but he could be using a 3 or even 2 speed box.

Then again.

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36 minutes ago, GBow521 said:

Strength, ratio selection, ease of shifting, 2,3,4 speeds, and no false neutrals. 

making a trans a 2,3,or 4 speed is relatively simple so is removing neutral just takes a different shift star.

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Just now, EnglertRacing said:

making a trans a 2,3,or 4 speed is relatively simple so is removing neutral just takes a different shift star.

Indeed, changing the ratios and making shafts is not terribly hard, but getting aerospace certified triple vacuum remelt steel for reliability is something usually only big organisations do.

 

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1 minute ago, Momus said:

Indeed, changing the ratios and making shafts is not terribly hard, but getting aerospace certified triple vacuum remelt steel for reliability is something usually only big organisations do.

 

you don't really need to make shafts to delete gears.....

diesel trans dudes are making incredibly expensive shafts out of all sorts of exotic materials on the daily

I could only imagine going to such an excessively exotic material if they were going to extensively lighten the components, which i suppose they might if there were going to go through the trouble of making them in the first place

 

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41 minutes ago, EnglertRacing said:

making a trans a 2,3,or 4 speed is relatively simple so is removing neutral just takes a different shift star.

If you watch a start it's clear none of these guys are using a trans with no neutral. 

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57 minutes ago, eastreich said:

Probably won't visually see much of a difference.

The biggest difference is what parameters/levels/degree of fineness can be changed inside a factory ECU (by the guys that know what they are doing) compared to a stock one.  Same as the differences (for me) in having my stock Husky ECU reprogrammed, vs what can be done with a Vortex (way more capability).  I am sure that the "factory" ECUs available to those parties have a similar upgrade in performance of the Vortex (in regards to what could be done) as the Vortex is to my stock ECU.

Ya I work for one of the core companies so it is mostly curiosity. Most of the cores are identical with some config switches being provided for certain registers & features in the HW. But that would be more expensive than simply keeping the programming proprietary. Lots of companies make sure this stuff is highly encrypted so it is not like you are going to strap an emulator to it and recode it with GCC even if you do get in...:ride:

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2 hours ago, Chaconne said:

Ya I work for one of the core companies so it is mostly curiosity. Most of the cores are identical with some config switches being provided for certain registers & features in the HW. But that would be more expensive than simply keeping the programming proprietary. Lots of companies make sure this stuff is highly encrypted so it is not like you are going to strap an emulator to it and recode it with GCC even if you do get in...:ride:

Could you post that in English?

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9 hours ago, GBow521 said:

Traction control has been a thing on factory bikes since the 4 stroke came out. 
 

 Now it’s perfected in some very cool ways. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but the science behind it is cool.  

Tell us how it works. I’ve always thought it was strange because often traction control is bad on things like cars and trucks of road.  So I never understood how they were able to make it work for dirt bikes. 

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7 minutes ago, KTMRider4Life said:

Tell us how it works. I’ve always thought it was strange because often traction control is bad on things like cars and trucks of road.  So I never understood how they were able to make it work for dirt bikes. 

well, traction control out in the open and in specific racing applications has become quite advanced, see the likes of a bmw s1000rr and super cars like mclarens (the mclarens TC is so good it lets you get the thing loose and drive composed)

I am pretty sure in AMA they aren't allowed to use a front wheel speed sensor for refrence like a conventional TC system

 

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2 minutes ago, EnglertRacing said:

well, traction control out in the open and in specific racing applications has become quite advanced, see the likes of a bmw s1000rr and super cars like mclarens (the mclarens TC is so good it lets you get the thing loose and drive composed)

I am pretty sure in AMA they aren't allowed to use a front wheel speed sensor for refrence like a conventional TC system

 

I think it's lame they're limiting how they can do it. Let them do what they want and make advancements. 

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The simple way to do it on a dirt bike is to have the ECU plot rpm against the TPS. If the rpm increases at a rate inconsistent with the the rate of opening from the throttle position sensor, that is rear wheel slip, then you cut timing and/or fuel.

The devil is in the details of how fast the info can be processed and how good the tuning of the system is.

Modern street bikes use the tone rings for the ABS as wheel speed sensors for an additional control parameter. Multi axis IMUs permit the lean angle to be known and allow another layer of traction control (along with ABS and wheelie) to be added: more ECU intervention when leaned over with less traction on the tire edge.

Edited by eastreich
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26 minutes ago, Piney Woods said:

Could you post that in English?

Sure. The chips (cores) and digital signal processors (DSPs) in lines of electronics like ECUs are usually the same and vary either by specialty feature selection (expensive) or by programming (cheap).

Either way the companies make it difficult to hack into them (though it can be done). 

HTH

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Personally, I'm curious to see how far the electronics on high end dirt bikes will go.

Will we see drive by wire systems with six axis IMUs on KTMs or Yamahas (they will be first) before the manufacturers are all selling electric dirt bikes?

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27 minutes ago, eastreich said:

The simple way to do it on a dirt bike is to have the ECU plot rpm against the TPS. If the rpm increases at a rate inconsistent with the the rate of opening from the throttle position sensor, that is rear wheel slip, then you cut timing and/or fuel.

The devil is in the details of how fast the info can be processed and how good the tuning of the system is.

Modern street bikes use the tone rings for the ABS as wheel speed sensors for an additional control parameter. Multi axis IMUs permit the lean angle to be known and allow another layer of traction control (along with ABS and wheelie) to be added: more ECU intervention when leaned over with less traction on the tire edge.

Yet sometimes you want the wheel to spin so that could be a problem. Just like with trucks off road, so there has to be more to it. 

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18 minutes ago, eastreich said:

Personally, I'm curious to see how far the electronics on high end dirt bikes will go.

Will we see drive by wire systems with six axis IMUs on KTMs or Yamahas (they will be first) before the manufacturers are all selling electric dirt bikes?

Was working for a startup on a sensor system a few years ago and I was brought to one of investor pitches since I had written some of the initial software and I had to do one of the demos. At the end of the pitch there was back and forth between our ceo & finance guys and the venture capital guys. I didn't hear the whole conversation but I clearly heard one of the venture guys say "I don't care what your widget does just tell me the BOM cost". 

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