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motocross Kenny won on a stock bike....

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8 minutes ago, KTMRider4Life said:

Yet sometimes you want the wheel to spin so that could be a problem. Just like with trucks off road, so there has to be more to it. 

Ya for sure. That was the basic outline though. 

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1 hour ago, KTMRider4Life said:

Tell us how it works. I’ve always thought it was strange because often traction control is bad on things like cars and trucks of road.  So I never understood how they were able to make it work for dirt bikes. 

Think of something like the GET system that you see during national tv coverage where they compare two riders lines. It shows speed and feet, all tracked by satellite/gps. 
 
A factory ecu works sorta the same way. It learns the track in two or three laps and knows the rpm ranch were the bike should be at on that part of the track. When the wheel starts spinning because it hits water, the ecu changes the curve or fuel to stop spin. A rider can literally go full throttle and the ecu will follow what it’s learned for the most part.  
 

They look at the data and can adjust the ecu to the track. 

 Obviously it’s a bit more complex, but that’s it in a nutshell. 
 

 

Edited by GBow521
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1 minute ago, GBow521 said:

Think of something like the GET system that you see during national tv coverage where they compare two riders lines. It shows speed and feet, all tracked by satellite/gps. 
 
A factory ecu works sorta the same way. It learns the track in two or three laps and knows the rpm ranch were the bike should be at on that part of the track. When the wheel starts spinning because it hits water, the ecu changes the curve or fuel to stop spin. 
 

They look at the data and can adjust the ecu to the track. 

 Obviously it’s a bit more complex, but that’s it in a nutshell. 
 

 

So this is something they're using only for the pro's, not the same as what's on the production bikes. 

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1 minute ago, KTMRider4Life said:

So this is something they're using only for the pro's, not the same as what's on the production bikes. 

No, it’s why you hear Reed talk about how unfair a factory ecu is.  

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Just now, GBow521 said:

No, it’s why you hear Reed talk about how unfair a factory ecu is.  

Yeah I can see where something like that would be next level difference maker. Rough enough on the non factory guys that the factory guys have better equipment but when you're in a sense using near AI to help the rider that's not fair. 

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19 minutes ago, KTMRider4Life said:

Yet sometimes you want the wheel to spin so that could be a problem. Just like with trucks off road, so there has to be more to it. 

That's why on a modern superbike or adventure bike you have multiple levels of traction control, off road modes, rain modes, etc...

Same thing with my wife's Explorer or my F150 Raptor: different drive modes have different levels of TC or ABS intervention.

When you get to the bleeding edge in MotoGP or F1 things may also be mapped/tuned for specific sections of a track...

Dirt bikes are just on the baby steps of the technology, well, a little bit past baby stage with EFI and being able to cut fuel. The first systems on carbed bikes could only cut timing.

I've played with the TC on my 450 and it definitely works for the simplistic system that it is. You do NOT want to use it in all locations (shut it off if hill climbing!) but in the places it works it is an advantage. You just have to figure out where it works best for you. It won't be the same for everyone.

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8 minutes ago, KTMRider4Life said:

Yeah I can see where something like that would be next level difference maker. Rough enough on the non factory guys that the factory guys have better equipment but when you're in a sense using near AI to help the rider that's not fair. 

And also why it is so expensive to field a factory MX/SX team.

With this technology out of the genie's bottle, it is a huge advantage to have. The hardware isn't necessarily the expensive part. It is the people behind it that have the ability to program the ECU and interpret rider feedback to make it all seamless. I'm not sure what the total expenditure would be, but for a factory team I would estimate $250k of the yearly budget is just in data acquisition hardware/ECUs and the people to program/operate/tune those systems.

Not saying that today's riders aren't great. They absolutely are. But can you imagine what the corner speed would have been for someone like McGrath if he'd had this technological capability on his CR and YZ smokers?

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37 minutes ago, Chaconne said:

Was working for a startup on a sensor system a few years ago and I was brought to one of investor pitches since I had written some of the initial software and I had to do one of the demos. At the end of the pitch there was back and forth between our ceo & finance guys and the venture capital guys. I didn't hear the whole conversation but I clearly heard one of the venture guys say "I don't care what your widget does just tell me the BOM cost". 

I get it. I'm fighting that at my work now on a new high level control system. The one we would prefer to go with, which has much more capability, isn't locked down (I could tune the programming myself instead of trying to call someone in The Netherlands to do it remotely), and has far superior customer support is also $100k more than the other option. ROI on the preferred/expensive option is still under 2.5 years, but guess which vendor the corporate bean counters will only approve CapEx for?

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47 minutes ago, eastreich said:

That's why on a modern superbike or adventure bike you have multiple levels of traction control, off road modes, rain modes, etc...

Same thing with my wife's Explorer or my F150 Raptor: different drive modes have different levels of TC or ABS intervention.

When you get to the bleeding edge in MotoGP or F1 things may also be mapped/tuned for specific sections of a track...

Dirt bikes are just on the baby steps of the technology, well, a little bit past baby stage with EFI and being able to cut fuel. The first systems on carbed bikes could only cut timing.

I've played with the TC on my 450 and it definitely works for the simplistic system that it is. You do NOT want to use it in all locations (shut it off if hill climbing!) but in the places it works it is an advantage. You just have to figure out where it works best for you. It won't be the same for everyone.

Their ecu Technology is on par with MotoGP, that’s where they got it from  Most of the tuners in the pits come from road racing. 

Edited by GBow521
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1 minute ago, GBow521 said:

Their ecu Technology is on par with MotoGP, that’s where they got it from  Most of the tuners in the pits come from road racing. 

I know when the Japanese manufacturers started folding up their AMA superbike teams the electronics technicians all had new homes with the dirt bike side.

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1 hour ago, eastreich said:

I get it. I'm fighting that at my work now on a new high level control system. The one we would prefer to go with, which has much more capability, isn't locked down (I could tune the programming myself instead of trying to call someone in The Netherlands to do it remotely), and has far superior customer support is also $100k more than the other option. ROI on the preferred/expensive option is still under 2.5 years, but guess which vendor the corporate bean counters will only approve CapEx for?

Same everywhere my friend.:ride:

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I'd heard rumors that the ECU had gotten that sophisticated, but wasn't sure.  When Ferrandis said his starts were bad because his ECU was tuned for lap times at the expense of the start I'd kind of discounted the ECU being capable of knowing where it is on the track. Perhaps the team just played a mental game with Dylan and told him that.

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13 hours ago, GBow521 said:

Strength, ratio selection, ease of shifting, 2,3,4 speeds, and no false neutrals. 

I heard about the 3 and 4 speed gearboxes and fake gears the teams are using years ago. Obviously it's been around a long time both in mxgp and in the US. 

But what I cannot figure out is why the oems doesn't make the gearbox like that for the mass production. 

You never use 1 or 5 gear anyway! 

Edited by MxGringo

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2 hours ago, MxGringo said:

I heard about the 3 and 4 speed gearboxes and fake gears the teams are using years ago. Obviously it's been around a long time both in mxgp and in the US. 

But what I cannot figure out is why the oems doesn't make the gearbox like that for the mass production. 

You never use 1 or 5 gear anyway! 

Because the vast majority of consumers still want 1st & 5th.

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6 hours ago, MANIAC998 said:

Because the vast majority of consumers still want 1st & 5th.

And I want 6th! Bring back the 10 speed Huskies!

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17 hours ago, eastreich said:

I know when the Japanese manufacturers started folding up their AMA superbike teams the electronics technicians all had new homes with the dirt bike side.

Wine to beer,,,how disgusting!

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5 minutes ago, Piney Woods said:

Wine to beer,,,how disgusting!

Neither are a finely aged whisky, so does it really matter?

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It does to the wine drinker. They can be quite picky. I think they call it "discriminating".

Edited by Piney Woods

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