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2021 T-Race Rally Pro Electric Motorcycle "100% Dakar Ready"

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On 12/24/2020 at 10:56 AM, Skimmer said:

This one can do 100 miles plus no bother, 22ltr Acerbis tank, I don't have to carry spare fuel, the whole world is equipped to refuel this. Not sure where you're going to carry a spare battery capable of taking you 100 miles nor where you might recharge, whatever floats your boat I suppose.

20191215_084040.jpg

I rode Baja on an XR250 with a 250 mile range and an XR400 with a 200 mile range.  Four gallon tanks on each.

XR400 would be a good Dakar bike if the wheelbase was extended two or three inches.

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Had a '16 Zero SR w/ power tank. I live in the mountains and rode mostly in ECO (70%) except to pass (YAHOOO! ) . The best I could do is 100miles round trip. I'm thinking you would need to stash batteries along the way. Because there is no way an onboard battery would last 200mi. WFO in the dirt unless it was huge and Heavy.

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On 12/24/2020 at 11:25 AM, Woods_Rider said:

Yep, out west, 50-75 miles with lots of elevation gain/loss is typical. Not unusual to do 100-125 depending on the groups aftermarket gas tank capacity, possible gas stops along the way, etc.

E-dirt bikes are a long way from being remotely competitive in the range dept with ICE dirt bikes out west.

I love my Alta, but ride it mainly locally at a friends property, 50 acres or so of single track goodness. Usually plan 1/2 day rides that are intense work outs, 15-20 miles and I've had more then enough.

Have had it out in the mountains a few times, have to plan 20-25 mile loops. Can recharge from zero to 100% in about 1.5 hrs with the 240V generator during a lunch break, then out for another 25 mile loop if I want, but its a completely different ride vs filling up the Husky tank and heading out for 75 miles in the morning and getting back whenever.

On the Alta I'm definitely limited on the loops that I can ride up in the mtns, takes a lot more planning then I'm used to.

I'm looking forward to real world 50+ mile range full sized e-dirt bikes. 100 miles would be even better of course. Someday.

Considering that there are losses every time that you swap from one source of energy to another...how is this any better for the environment?  Is it actually worse than just putting the fuel in a traditional IC bike?

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18 hours ago, G.P. said:

Considering that there are losses every time that you swap from one source of energy to another...how is this any better for the environment?  Is it actually worse than just putting the fuel in a traditional IC bike?

Where did I write one word about it being any better for the environment?

Where did I write one word about it being better than just putting fuel in a traditional IC bike?

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20 hours ago, G.P. said:

Considering that there are losses every time that you swap from one source of energy to another...how is this any better for the environment?  Is it actually worse than just putting the fuel in a traditional IC bike?

Well it depends on the power grid you are connected to. The most efficient stem power plants can run at 60-70% efficiency and power loss from there to your battery could be about 80% so overall from start to your battery would be around 50%. A typical gas engine with standard transmission and rear wheel drive is about 20% so still way more efficient (even a generator charging a battery and using that charge is closer to 30% bc gas engines in bikes are so eneficient). Alsonthese are number for 4 strokes,2 strokes are even worse so technically they are more efficient and need less maintenance. 

As woods rider pointed out though some of us on electric bikes dont only consider this as the argument for them, we actually love power delivery, lower maint, it's great for opening new trails, etc.

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3 hours ago, Woods_Rider said:

Where did I write one word about it being any better for the environment?

Where did I write one word about it being better than just putting fuel in a traditional IC bike?

Where did I write one word that you stated it was better for the environment?  That is the general claim made for electric bikes and vehicles though.  If it’s not better for the environment, then what are the advantages?  You paid your hard earned money and have real world experience...figured you might know.  
 

Edited by G.P.

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1 hour ago, mr.skywalker said:

Well it depends on the power grid you are connected to. The most efficient stem power plants can run at 60-70% efficiency and power loss from there to your battery could be about 80% so overall from start to your battery would be around 50%. A typical gas engine with standard transmission and rear wheel drive is about 20% so still way more efficient (even a generator charging a battery and using that charge is closer to 30% bc gas engines in bikes are so eneficient). Alsonthese are number for 4 strokes,2 strokes are even worse so technically they are more efficient and need less maintenance. 

As woods rider pointed out though some of us on electric bikes dont only consider this as the argument for them, we actually love power delivery, lower maint, it's great for opening new trails, etc.

Thank you for an actual well thought out and well presented answer.  Much appreciated. 
 

Id love to get on board, but battery replacement cost is still holding me back. I’ve been into high performance electric RC aircraft for over a decade now and my real world experience is averaging about 3 years before my lipo packs need replacement. After that they don’t have the capacity and too much internal resistance for a high performance application. They’ll last much longer in a less demanding application after that point though. 

Edited by G.P.

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6 minutes ago, G.P. said:

Thank you for an actual well thought out and well presented answer.  Much appreciated. 
 

Id love to get on board, but battery replacement cost is still holding me back. I’ve been into high performance electric RC aircraft for over a decade now and my real world experience is averaging about 3 years before my lipo packs need replacement. After that they don’t have the capacity and too much internal resistance for a high performance application. They’ll last much longer in a less demanding application after that point though. 

No problem, I'm a mechanical engineer so I learned alot about how inefficient typical gas engines are vs power plants so it makes sense why in a place where power grids are easy to use(big cities) it makes sense for electric to be big but long distance in rural areas its understandable they arent where they need to be yet for that.

I'll see how long these cells last i my surron but my understanding is these 18650 cells last alot longer than typical lipos and they can have bad cells replaced if one goes bad. I know in rv applications they can last 10+ years and still be at 80%. I expect 5-6yrs for each pack on my bike before they get down to 70% based on others reviews of theirs after 2yrs. So it's at a point that its useable and it wouldnt be hard to adopt the new tech at the time you need new cells so that's one reason I went ahead and took the leap

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45 minutes ago, mr.skywalker said:

No problem, I'm a mechanical engineer so I learned alot about how inefficient typical gas engines are vs power plants so it makes sense why in a place where power grids are easy to use(big cities) it makes sense for electric to be big but long distance in rural areas its understandable they arent where they need to be yet for that.

I'll see how long these cells last i my surron but my understanding is these 18650 cells last alot longer than typical lipos and they can have bad cells replaced if one goes bad. I know in rv applications they can last 10+ years and still be at 80%. I expect 5-6yrs for each pack on my bike before they get down to 70% based on others reviews of theirs after 2yrs. So it's at a point that its useable and it wouldnt be hard to adopt the new tech at the time you need new cells so that's one reason I went ahead and took the leap

I’m surprised that they are 18650 cells!  My other geeky hobby is high performance flashlights (yes that’s actually a thing....flashaholic). 18650 cells are the primary cells used. I’ve had much better longevity out of my vast collection of 18650 cells. I’m just surprised that they would have chosen these cells for bikes and motorcycles where weight and energy density is a major priority. You can get higher energy density and lower weight by going with RC type packs, especially with some of the 4.35v HV packs. 18650 are more damage resistant, easier to change a cell like you mentioned, and do seem to last longer. 

Edited by G.P.

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Yea 18650 are the standard for bikes it seems. Some are using pouch cells but 18650 are used in everything from ebikes to dirtbike to electric conversions bc they can be formed to any shape you want. Im looking to eventually use old Tesla 21700 cells. Even alta used 18650 in theirs

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for more safety and a just  less efficiency, sure the lifepo4 are the way, compared to "pure" lithium. But we still have the NO charge allowed under 0° celsius , very bad performance in cold temp, and the flat tension until sudden drop curve at end of capacity making it rather difficult to really know how much juice you still get in.  The famous " i still get  6 to 10 %" and 2 km later , end of story... 

Edited by Hannibal Babar

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2 hours ago, G.P. said:

Where did I write one word that you stated it was better for the environment?  That is the general claim made for electric bikes and vehicles though.  If it’s not better for the environment, then what are the advantages?  You paid your hard earned money and have real world experience...figured you might know.  
 

Its generally understood that if you quote someone and then reply under that quote, that you are directing your statements and questions at that person. In your own words:

"Considering that there are losses every time that you swap from one source of energy to another...how is this any better for the environment?  Is it actually worse than just putting the fuel in a traditional IC bike?"

Regarding your question, "what are the advantages"?

I can only speak for me, but many other Alta owners feel the same way. Its by far the most fun dirt bike I have ever ridden, and I've ridden and owned a bunch of great dirt bikes over the years. Test rode an Alta and immediately decided I wanted one, sold my '16 KTM 350 XCFW to get one.

For my '18 Alta MXR, specifically:

  • Super precise and consistent throttle control. Never varies, always gives me exactly the power I want, instantly. Doesn't matter the elevation, temp, humidity. Precise and consistent, always. I have not ridden an ICE bike that compares.
  • 50 hp, tons of torque at 1 rpm. 4 map switches from mild to wild.
  • Handles like a 250F.
  • Quiet. I like riding in the woods quietly, gets me in a "zen mode", its different then ICE bikes. Also opens up all kinds of new riding areas.
  • Minimal maintenance.  And I never have to wonder if this ride will be the day my bike decides to be difficult to start, or won't start at all. I don't have to f around with air filter cleaning, oiling, changing. No regular gear oil changes.
  • No gears. Its always in the "right" gear.
  • Never stalls. I can ride the gnarliest terrain as slow as I want and it always tractors through.
  • Hill climbs are a breeze. No approach hill climbs and super tight uphill switchbacks, no sweat. Or I can blast up hill climbs, either way, no sweat.
  • Regen rear wheel braking is handy.
  • More fun. Its just way more fun to ride my Alta. I hardly ride my Husky FE 350 anymore, the only time I ride it is on long mountain rides.

Some disadvantages:

  • Range: 25-40 miles depending on how hard I hammer it. I do a lot of single track riding at a friends property, usually half day rides, 12-20 miles, its a great workout. If I want more I can bring the generator and charge it up, but I usually don't bother as the single track and pace is enough in 1/2 day.
  • Alta is out of business, no factory support. Fortunately the Alta owners have been self supporting and spare parts are still available.

I love my Alta and as soon as Honda, KTM, or Yamaha starts selling an Alta comparable dirt bike I will buy one. If it has longer range, is lighter, less expensive, quick change battery, that will be even better.

 

 

Edited by Woods_Rider

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Woods_Rider said:

Its generally understood that if you quote someone and then reply under that quote, that you are directing your statements and questions at that person. In your own words:

"Considering that there are losses every time that you swap from one source of energy to another...how is this any better for the environment?  Is it actually worse than just putting the fuel in a traditional IC bike?"

Regarding your question, "what are the advantages"?

I can only speak for me, but many other Alta owners feel the same way. Its by far the most fun dirt bike I have ever ridden, and I've ridden and owned a bunch of great dirt bikes over the years. Test rode an Alta and immediately decided I wanted one, sold my '16 KTM 350 XCFW to get one.

For my '18 Alta MXR, specifically:

  • Super precise and consistent throttle control. Never varies, always gives me exactly the power I want, instantly. Doesn't matter the elevation, temp, humidity. Precise and consistent, always. I have not ridden an ICE bike that compares.
  • 50 hp, tons of torque at 1 rpm. 4 map switches from mild to wild.
  • Handles like a 250F.
  • Quiet. I like riding in the woods quietly, gets me in a "zen mode", its different then ICE bikes. Also opens up all kinds of new riding areas.
  • Minimal maintenance.  And I never have to wonder if this ride will be the day my bike decides to be difficult to start, or won't start at all. I don't have to f around with air filter cleaning, oiling, changing. No regular gear oil changes.
  • No gears. Its always in the "right" gear.
  • Never stalls. I can ride the gnarliest terrain as slow as I want and it always tractors through.
  • Hill climbs are a breeze. No approach hill climbs and super tight uphill switchbacks, no sweat. Or I can blast up hill climbs, either way, no sweat.
  • Regen rear wheel braking is handy.
  • More fun. Its just way more fun to ride my Alta. I hardly ride my Husky FE 350 anymore, the only time I ride it is on long mountain rides.

Some disadvantages:

  • Range: 25-40 miles depending on how hard I hammer it. I do a lot of single track riding at a friends property, usually half day rides, 12-20 miles, its a great workout. If I want more I can bring the generator and charge it up, but I usually don't bother as the single track and pace is enough in 1/2 day.
  • Alta is out of business, no factory support. Fortunately the Alta owners have been self supporting and spare parts are still available.

I love my Alta and as soon as Honda, KTM, or Yamaha starts selling an Alta comparable dirt bike I will buy one. If it has longer range, is lighter, less expensive, quick change battery, that will be even better.

 

 

Thank you for more helpful response, that is greatly appreciated.
 

Having been into high performance electrics in other areas, I get what you’re saying about maintenance and reliability.  My electric airplanes and helis are definitely more reliable than their IC counterparts..but they do have their issues.  Dirt bikes today are pretty darn good though.  I can’t even remember the last time I had to fix something that wasn’t crash related, or a wear item that an electric bike still has (tires, brake pads, chain and sprockets). Less moving parts is always more reliable though!

 

Im curious about the more riding areas.  Is this something that you are able to do legally, or is it just harder to get caught because you are stealthy?  Are electric motorcycles still classified as OHVs, or are they something else?  I’ve been an advocate for quiet bikes helping keep riding areas open, but I can’t think of any areas around me that would actually open up with an electric motorcycle.  As far as I’m aware, in Canada, electric bicycles without pedals are legally not bicycles anymore.  People are finding new riding areas with these locally because they look like mountain bikes, but not legally.  I doubt I would be able to do the same with an electric dirt bike just because of the way it looks. 

Edited by G.P.
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Posted (edited)

I re-read this topic again and for us in the UK and Europe there could be some possible drawbacks on an all electric bike. To ride trails (green lanes, byways to us) you have to have a road legal bike because we have to use public roads to get from one trail to another, then byways, green lanes, call them what you will are classed as public roads so you must comply with all the legal requirements to use. We have no OHV areas here and the other choice is enduro or MX on closed courses. To ride on blacktop roads the bike must be road legal, taxed, insured and MOT'd which is a once year legal requirement where if you fail this test you cannot tax and insure the bike. My question is how much more would the batteries be depleted when running lights which is a stipulation for any vehicle used on the roads here, our byways etc are classed as roads so require vehicles to be fully compliant with road traffic regulations as they stand. The bikes are fitted with lights and are not fitted with switches to chose whether to switch on or off when manufactured. Makes me wonder if they will be of any use to us at all to be honest.

Edited by Skimmer

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20 minutes ago, Skimmer said:

I re-read this topic again and for us in the UK and Europe there could be some possible drawbacks on an all electric bike. To ride trails (green lanes, byways to us) you have to have a road legal bike because we have to use public roads to get from one trail to another, then byways, green lanes, call them what you will are classed as public roads so you must comply with all the legal requirements to use. We have no OHV areas here and the other choice is enduro or MX on closed courses. To ride on blacktop roads the bike must be road legal, taxed, insured and MOT'd which is a once year legal requirement where if you fail this test you cannot tax and insure the bike. My question is how much more would the batteries be depleted when running lights which is a stipulation for any vehicle used on the roads here, our byways etc are classed as roads so require vehicles to be fully compliant with road traffic regulations as they stand. The bikes are fitted with lights and are not fitted with switches to chose whether to switch on or off when manufactured. Makes me wonder if they will be of any use to us at all to be honest.

LED lights don't pull nearly the same amount of power incandescent bulbs do, so having full running gear with LED lights would have very little to no effect on battery run time. Also keep in mind this is a purpose built race bike so just tooling around on public roads the battery will last even longer.

It looks like the EM Escape Lite comes street legal, it has a plate holder and lights.

ESCAPELITE03__57899.1596496456.jpg.1038d5da8136ea3637cc77e45e55637f.jpg

 

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No way it’s Dakar ready.  The stages are too long and too fast to be completed without frequent battery swaps.  If I remember correctly stages are 400-600km per day and high speed.   Current battery energy density is no where close to what is needed for a corner case like this.  Even a simple 450 rally bike has 7-10 gallons of gas on board.  To equal the range of 7 gallons you would need around 75kwh of battery.  In current production batteries, that’s probably close to 1000lbs of battery at today’s technology.  Even a 25 kwh pack would have to be swapped 3 x for every fill up of a ice bike.  If it wasn’t an issue for frequent fillups, the bikes wouldn’t be carrying so much fuel. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, stupidmoto said:

LED lights don't pull nearly the same amount of power incandescent bulbs do, so having full running gear with LED lights would have very little to no effect on battery run time. Also keep in mind this is a purpose built race bike so just tooling around on public roads the battery will last even longer.

It looks like the EM Escape Lite comes street legal, it has a plate holder and lights.

ESCAPELITE03__57899.1596496456.jpg.1038d5da8136ea3637cc77e45e55637f.jpg

 

Advehttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2021-ELECTRIC-MOTION-EPURE-ESCAPE-LITE-BRAND-NEW-ELECTRIC-TRIALS-BIKE-/203109714211Advertised as 450nm by my calculation is around 330ft/lbs, surely the most powerful dirk bike in history with a range of 43kms, proper Dakar bike.

Edited by Skimmer

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, G.P. said:

Im curious about the more riding areas.  Is this something that you are able to do legally, or is it just harder to get caught because you are stealthy?  Are electric motorcycles still classified as OHVs, or are they something else?  I’ve been an advocate for quiet bikes helping keep riding areas open, but I can’t think of any areas around me that would actually open up with an electric motorcycle.  As far as I’m aware, in Canada, electric bicycles without pedals are legally not bicycles anymore.  People are finding new riding areas with these locally because they look like mountain bikes, but not legally.  I doubt I would be able to do the same with an electric dirt bike just because of the way it looks. 

I'm talking about being able to ride more places legally with an e-dirt bike that is basically treated like any other ICE dirt bike, except its very quiet.

The more riding areas comment I made is referring to being able to ride an e-dirt bike on private property without bothering neighbors vs riding a regular ICE dirt bike that might bother people with the noise. For the Alta crowd, I've been reading of guys who have backyard tracks or property where they limited their riding hours so they don't bother their neighbors with the noise, or they can't ride on their property at all. With their Altas they can ride whenever they like without annoying the neighbors. Some of them have bought e-mini dirt bikes for their kids too and they are loving it. 

Same goes for existing full sized moto tracks that are facing pressure from neighbors complaining about noise. A very common problem.

I think e-dirt bikes also open up the idea of urban tracks/riding areas. In King County where Seattle is, there are no legal tracks or ORV riding areas, but there are tons of dirt bike riders living there. Those peeps have to drive 1.5 - 2 hrs to get to the closest tracks or trails. An enterprising club or entrepreneur could open up a e-dirt bike only track/trails site on some former industrial site somewhere closer, or even, in the city. Another option is year 'round indoor e-dirt bike riding, perhaps in a mall or empty warehouse space. With the internet killing retail there are more and more spaces lying vacate around here.

E-dirt bikes could also help bring more people into the sport. They are super easy to learn to ride on, can be programmed to behave from mild to wild, are super reliable, and are overall less intimidating for beginners. Combine that with being able to ride them in places you could never ride a regular ICE dirt bike and I think it will be good for the sport.

I also think when e-dirt bikes have greater range and are more common, they will make it easier to keep existing trails from being shut down, and will make it easier to build new trails. Taking away the "noise and fumes" argument from the anti-orv crowd can only help keep trails open.

Lastly, I read about people on e-dirt bikes poaching mtn bike trails, riding in city parks, hitting under the radar riding areas, I'm not in favor of that, or any illegal riding for that matter. Besides being illegal, its paints all dirt bike riders with the same negative brush. We already have enough people that are anti dirt bikes, we don't need to give them additional ammo IMO.

Edited by Woods_Rider
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5 hours ago, Skimmer said:

I re-read this topic again and for us in the UK and Europe there could be some possible drawbacks on an all electric bike. To ride trails (green lanes, byways to us) you have to have a road legal bike because we have to use public roads to get from one trail to another, then byways, green lanes, call them what you will are classed as public roads so you must comply with all the legal requirements to use. We have no OHV areas here and the other choice is enduro or MX on closed courses. To ride on blacktop roads the bike must be road legal, taxed, insured and MOT'd which is a once year legal requirement where if you fail this test you cannot tax and insure the bike. My question is how much more would the batteries be depleted when running lights which is a stipulation for any vehicle used on the roads here, our byways etc are classed as roads so require vehicles to be fully compliant with road traffic regulations as they stand. The bikes are fitted with lights and are not fitted with switches to chose whether to switch on or off when manufactured. Makes me wonder if they will be of any use to us at all to be honest.

The Alta EX/EXR is a fully street legal dual sport style dirt bike, some of the Alta owners are in the UK and are loving them. On the Alta owners forum we get regular inquiries from people in Europe who are looking for used Altas to import.

The battery drain and impact on range is minimal from the street legal LED lights, a complete non-issue from what I have read from the Alta EXR owners.

I would expect the same situation if Honda, KTM, Yamaha, etc, ever releases a street legal dual sport style e-dirt bike.

So, yes, they are of great use to the Alta EXR owners in the UK and other European countries that own them, and love them.

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