Beta announces MXGP Team

[Chaconne]

On 1/12/2021 at 10:46 AM, eastreich said:

I called those new thumpers when they came out 3 strokes.  They weren't a four stroke (like my XR), and as you mentioned, lots of issues.

The FCR-MX leak jet carb fixed a lot of the issues, and EFI has cured it for the most part.

But a modern four stroke still isn't what I really want.  Yes, my 450 is much more effective as a race bike, but when it comes to just dinking around (no matter if it is trail riding, or at the MX track) I will take my XR 9 times out of 10 and leave the Husky at home.  The 650R may weigh more than a "bathtub full of pig feed" but darn it, that engine in HRC trim with an FCR-MX carb on it makes perfect power for just about every situation.

Why not a WR450 it is like an xr400 only way better. Slightly larger sprocket in the back and the map you want and it will tractor grunt like @redrider144 at BBA's "camp" re-enacting Deliverance and handle a lot better than XRs.

I loved my XR4 BTW. WR just stomps it and is even few pounds lighter. If you ride a 650R you should be able to sling that WR around like a kid's toy and get more power to boot.

[hawaiidirtrider]

On 1/12/2021 at 4:09 AM, eastreich said:

From a western US racing standpoint, the Beta MXGP project will be a great test bed for hopefully a future cross country model.  At the amateur level, there is nothing that the current bikes can't do and you won't be any faster on anything else.  You are going to be who you are!

But...  At the very top level out in the deserts the Betas could use more top end.  It isn't necessary at every race, but I think it became very apparent after Vegas to Reno last year.  Even on the big 480, the Beta was way down on top speed to the Austrian models that were all running "motocross" engines (higher rpm power) with sixth gear added.  Rideability and all is great, but for the guys with the ability to race the very tip of the spear they need a bit more and can make up for a lack of said "rideability" with their talent.  Saying that, an Austrian 450 is a really "rideable" power plant compared to most anything else in the same category.  They are incredibly smooth and seemingly pull forever.

If working on an MXGP project in their backyard in Italy nets engineering info and tuning to get a more desert/western/cross country powerplant out there that is similar in oomph to the XC-F/FXs assembled to the North, great!  My fat slow butt won't really care the majority of the time, but it will be fun to play with every now and then.

And that is the reason I am so interested in the (hopefully) upcoming 450RX.  I don't care about racing the bike in motocross.  I just want to see an even higher power spec stock than what is currently offered, no matter if that comes as an RX, an upgrade package for a RE (say, buy cams and dealer flashes the ECU accordingly), or a new CC version.  I am still going to get a Beta regardless, I just am greedy and want as much power as I can reasonably get in an OEM package.

Betas needed more top end? A 6 speed 500 needs more??  I wonder. Burson as an example won a championship on a 498 race edition .. ... I kind of think it’s the team and rider and setup but whatever. Maybe mxgp will have more motor and suspension options development for regular riders to buy later. It’s weird I think since Beta only got the very very limited availability 300 rx now for mx. So maybe a new 450 top end dropped into the same platform Beta 430 /500 and suspension to match? For options later?? Idk. It’s entertainment to see what happens next. 

[redrider144]

58 minutes ago, Chaconne said:

like @redrider144 at BBA's "camp" re-enacting Deliverance

You have me confused with whoever your twink-of-the-month is right now.

Edited January 13, 2021 by redrider144

[Chaconne]

2 minutes ago, redrider144 said:

You have me confused with whoever your twink-of-the-month is right now.

Hey you have lost weight:

 

 

[eastreich]

17 minutes ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Betas needed more top end? A 6 speed 500 needs more??  I wonder. Burson as an example won a championship on a 498 race edition .. ... I kind of think it’s the team and rider and setup but whatever. Maybe mxgp will have more motor and suspension options development for regular riders to buy later. It’s weird I think since Beta only got the very very limited availability 300 rx now for mx. So maybe a new 450 top end dropped into the same platform Beta 430 /500 and suspension to match? For options later?? Idk. It’s entertainment to see what happens next. 

The factory Beta 480 got yarded at Vegas to Reno in a straight line by Austrian 450s with stock engines, aftermarket pipes, sixth gear added to them, and whatever gearing they can pull.

So far with the 430s I have ridden, and they are fun, but I honestly equate them power wise with an Austrian 350.  They are not power houses.  I know that the 480 has more beans, but it is just an overbore with the same cams/valvetrain between the 480 RE and the 500 RR-S.  From all of the overbores I have ridden (including my 505) they put out more power, but its concentrated lower in the rpm range.  I am just assuming that I will be able to get it back on the 480RR by gearing it up a bit if need be as it will have enough bottom end to make due with taller gearing.

Maybe the solution is to get a 390, shove a 480 cylinder on it, and make my own new 498 (63.4mm stroke, 100mm bore)...

But yeah, it is definitely entertaining speculating what they are going to do!

[eastreich]

2 hours ago, Chaconne said:

Why not a WR450 it is like an xr400 only way better. Slightly larger sprocket in the back and the map you want and it will tractor grunt like @redrider144 at BBA's "camp" re-enacting Deliverance and handle a lot better than XRs.

I loved my XR4 BTW. WR just stomps it and is even few pounds lighter. If you ride a 650R you should be able to sling that WR around like a kid's toy and get more power to boot.

A WR still has the same handicap as any other Yamaha: I am not putting a dry break where my nuts sit when cornering.

If I could get past that incredibly idiotic fuel tank design that Yamahas have I would be on a YZ450FX already.  I will borrow my brother's YZ450F all day for playing with on the track or trail riding.  Great fun.  I've ridden it a bunch.  I won't race it in the desert. 

I don't like the Yamahas as much as my Husky, but I know a lot of that is setup: see previous picture of me and know that he keeps his personal demo bike with stock suspension so he can sell them quickly if need be.

And there are my two choices if I want to keep it in the family: YZ450FX or a Beta 480 (crossing my fingers for a 450RX).  My brother doesn't care which one I buy, as the profit on his end is identical between them, but he really thinks I need to be on the Beta compared to the Yamaha.

[mxaniac]

28 minutes ago, eastreich said:

A WR still has the same handicap as any other Yamaha: I am not putting a dry break where my nuts sit when cornering.

If I could get past that incredibly idiotic fuel tank design that Yamahas have I would be on a YZ450FX already.  I will borrow my brother's YZ450F all day for playing with on the track or trail riding.  Great fun.  I've ridden it a bunch.  I won't race it in the desert. 

I don't like the Yamahas as much as my Husky, but I know a lot of that is setup: see previous picture of me and know that he keeps his personal demo bike with stock suspension so he can sell them quickly if need be.

And there are my two choices if I want to keep it in the family: YZ450FX or a Beta 480 (crossing my fingers for a 450RX).  My brother doesn't care which one I buy, as the profit on his end is identical between them, but he really thinks I need to be on the Beta compared to the Yamaha.

So short sighted, you haven't even considered the 685 Maico 2T XC?

https://www.maico-bikeworld.de/en/motorcycles/neumotorraeder-2013.html

[eastreich]

Just now, mxaniac said:

So short sighted, you haven't even considered the 685 Maico 2T XC?

https://www.maico-bikeworld.de/en/motorcycles/neumotorraeder-2013.html

Don't even have to go that far.  Every now and then one of the ATK 700 Intimidator versions pops up for sale.  Just a matter of being patient!

 

[hawaiidirtrider]

1 hour ago, eastreich said:

The factory Beta 480 got yarded at Vegas to Reno in a straight line by Austrian 450s with stock engines, aftermarket pipes, sixth gear added to them, and whatever gearing they can pull.

So far with the 430s I have ridden, and they are fun, but I honestly equate them power wise with an Austrian 350.  They are not power houses.  I know that the 480 has more beans, but it is just an overbore with the same cams/valvetrain between the 480 RE and the 500 RR-S.  From all of the overbores I have ridden (including my 505) they put out more power, but its concentrated lower in the rpm range.  I am just assuming that I will be able to get it back on the 480RR by gearing it up a bit if need be as it will have enough bottom end to make due with taller gearing.

Maybe the solution is to get a 390, shove a 480 cylinder on it, and make my own new 498 (63.4mm stroke, 100mm bore)...

But yeah, it is definitely entertaining speculating what they are going to do!

I’m thinking they got yarded because the Beta riders just aren’t used to that higher speed racing. So the throttle hand just isn’t twisted as far and for longer periods of time. I mean anyone riding on a dirt road going 90 miles an hour knows if you aren’t used to high speeds you’re backing off to where you feel more comfortable. I remember a Beta rider was referring to that after reading in one of the Beta racing emails  after the race. I don’t think the bikes are slow at all. I think it’s more experienced racers winning.  I mean get any 450 or 500 and gear up and I don’t think the motor makes that much difference. Idk.. I gotta find the statements from the Beta riders after the race . Or if you find it tell me what you think. Seemed to me it sounded like the high speeds felt too hairy to handle for them  to me. 
 

Beta won before or came in a close second etc.. on big bore Betas..  Beta won baja too for that matter in the past on 450 rfs stock bikes.

http://dirthammers.com/2015/08/purvines-racing-beta-vegas-to-reno-report/

https://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/viewtopic.php?t=47963
 

 

https://www.dirtrider.com/community/staff-blogs/beta-motorcycle-wins-the-baja-500/

To me ya gotta be young and a bit nuts to ride that high speeds for so long.. you gotta be able to put your brains in your back pocket a little and not think much.. just look ahead and twist the throttle. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by hawaiidirtrider

[Chaconne]

1 hour ago, eastreich said:

A WR still has the same handicap as any other Yamaha: I am not putting a dry break where my nuts sit when cornering.

If I could get past that incredibly idiotic fuel tank design that Yamahas have I would be on a YZ450FX already.  I will borrow my brother's YZ450F all day for playing with on the track or trail riding.  Great fun.  I've ridden it a bunch.  I won't race it in the desert. 

I don't like the Yamahas as much as my Husky, but I know a lot of that is setup: see previous picture of me and know that he keeps his personal demo bike with stock suspension so he can sell them quickly if need be.

And there are my two choices if I want to keep it in the family: YZ450FX or a Beta 480 (crossing my fingers for a 450RX).  My brother doesn't care which one I buy, as the profit on his end is identical between them, but he really thinks I need to be on the Beta compared to the Yamaha.

No offense to my Beta friends but in that choice I am going YZ450FX all day long. Your nuts will thank you when your buddies are eating shit cleaning your roost off their helmets. 

[hawaiidirtrider]

9 minutes ago, Chaconne said:

No offense to my Beta friends but in that choice I am going YZ450FX all day long. Your nuts will thank you when your buddies are eating shit cleaning your roost off their helmets. 

Why? Beta won before. They can win again. When Burson won a championship on Beta then next year went to Yamaha? He didn’t win. Not that it matters. To win its the rider and team and bike and luck. It’s pick what you like. But it’s not like Beta hasn’t already proven it wins. 
 

http://dirthammers.com/tag/betapurvines-race-team/

Edited January 14, 2021 by hawaiidirtrider

[Chaconne]

4 minutes ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Why? Beta won before. They can win again. When Burson won a championship on Beta then next year went to Yamaha? He didn’t win. Not that it matters. To win its the rider and team and bike and luck. 

Ya agreed. I just like that 450fx a lot.

[hawaiidirtrider]

Just now, Chaconne said:

Ya agreed. I just like that 450fx a lot.

Yeah it’s ride what you love!! Life is short!!

[hawaiidirtrider]

But back to this Beta mxgp topic.. 

Doesnt it seem kind of twilight zone off? 
 
I mean whatever.. but ok .. really? 
 

Beta is an over 100 year old company and raced mx before. It’s just been soooooo long ago .  
Remember Jim Pomery?  That’s vintage old. 

 

 

 It will all get more real once the bikes are out and we see the riders doing laps on the track etc.. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by hawaiidirtrider

[hawaiidirtrider]

This went up already somewhere but here it is again.. for those who don’t know..

 

https://mxvice.com/chat-jeremy-van-horebeek/amp/

[mxaniac]

1 hour ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

Beta is an over 100 year old company and raced mx before. It’s just been soooooo long ago .  

Remember Jim Pomery?  That’s vintage old.

Bullshit, not possible.  I knew him, great guy.  If he would be that old it would make me, well nevermind it just can't be true.

[Cullins]

3 hours ago, hawaiidirtrider said:

I’m thinking they got yarded because the Beta riders just aren’t used to that higher speed racing. So the throttle hand just isn’t twisted as far and for longer periods of time. I mean anyone riding on a dirt road going 90 miles an hour knows if you aren’t used to high speeds you’re backing off to where you feel more comfortable. I remember a Beta rider was referring to that after reading in one of the Beta racing emails  after the race. I don’t think the bikes are slow at all. I think it’s more experienced racers winning.  I mean get any 450 or 500 and gear up and I don’t think the motor makes that much difference. Idk.. I gotta find the statements from the Beta riders after the race . Or if you find it tell me what you think. Seemed to me it sounded like the high speeds felt too hairy to handle for them  to me. 
 

Beta won before or came in a close second etc.. on big bore Betas..  Beta won baja too for that matter in the past on 450 rfs stock bikes.

http://dirthammers.com/2015/08/purvines-racing-beta-vegas-to-reno-report/

https://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/viewtopic.php?t=47963
 

 

https://www.dirtrider.com/community/staff-blogs/beta-motorcycle-wins-the-baja-500/

To me ya gotta be young and a bit nuts to ride that high speeds for so long.. you gotta be able to put your brains in your back pocket a little and not think much.. just look ahead and twist the throttle. 

 

5 hours ago, eastreich said:

The factory Beta 480 got yarded at Vegas to Reno in a straight line by Austrian 450s with stock engines, aftermarket pipes, sixth gear added to them, and whatever gearing they can pull.

So far with the 430s I have ridden, and they are fun, but I honestly equate them power wise with an Austrian 350.  They are not power houses.  I know that the 480 has more beans, but it is just an overbore with the same cams/valvetrain between the 480 RE and the 500 RR-S.  From all of the overbores I have ridden (including my 505) they put out more power, but its concentrated lower in the rpm range.  I am just assuming that I will be able to get it back on the 480RR by gearing it up a bit if need be as it will have enough bottom end to make due with taller gearing.

Maybe the solution is to get a 390, shove a 480 cylinder on it, and make my own new 498 (63.4mm stroke, 100mm bore)...

But yeah, it is definitely entertaining speculating what they are going to do!

The reason they got beat so bad was Beta screwed up on the setup, mainly with their mapping for that race. They thought they had a good setup, but ended up being slower than stock. 
Race teams mistake, not the bike. Live and learn.  

Edited January 14, 2021 by Cullins

[Johnny Depp]

On 1/12/2021 at 8:09 AM, eastreich said:

From a western US racing standpoint, the Beta MXGP project will be a great test bed for hopefully a future cross country model.  At the amateur level, there is nothing that the current bikes can't do and you won't be any faster on anything else.  You are going to be who you are!

But...  At the very top level out in the deserts the Betas could use more top end.  It isn't necessary at every race, but I think it became very apparent after Vegas to Reno last year.  Even on the big 480, the Beta was way down on top speed to the Austrian models that were all running "motocross" engines (higher rpm power) with sixth gear added.  Rideability and all is great, but for the guys with the ability to race the very tip of the spear they need a bit more and can make up for a lack of said "rideability" with their talent.  Saying that, an Austrian 450 is a really "rideable" power plant compared to most anything else in the same category.  They are incredibly smooth and seemingly pull forever.

If working on an MXGP project in their backyard in Italy nets engineering info and tuning to get a more desert/western/cross country powerplant out there that is similar in oomph to the XC-F/FXs assembled to the North, great!  My fat slow butt won't really care the majority of the time, but it will be fun to play with every now and then.

And that is the reason I am so interested in the (hopefully) upcoming 450RX.  I don't care about racing the bike in motocross.  I just want to see an even higher power spec stock than what is currently offered, no matter if that comes as an RX, an upgrade package for a RE (say, buy cams and dealer flashes the ECU accordingly), or a new CC version.  I am still going to get a Beta regardless, I just am greedy and want as much power as I can reasonably get in an OEM package.

You've provided lot's of good info, thanks. Pretty sure Beta got caught offguard in the Mint 400. It seems like they were just trying to find a Kenda tire that would stay together, and obviously got outrun according to Wasson. AFIK Beta hasn't worked too hard on power up programs, they've always had plenty. +100 mph is a different deal, who knows if they even played with gearing? Just as we saw with the Canadian build of the 430 at 67hp, a tuning shop knows what to do without any redesign. I'm like you though, hoping they deliver a production piece with the hard work already done for a reasonable price.

[hawaiidirtrider]

24 minutes ago, Cullins said:

 

The reason they got beat so bad was Beta screwed up on the setup, mainly with their mapping for that race. They thought they had a good setup, but ended up being slower than stock. 
Race teams mistake, not the bike. Live and learn.  

Ahh more background info.. 

[Johnny Depp]

3 hours ago, Chaconne said:

No offense to my Beta friends but in that choice I am going YZ450FX all day long. Your nuts will thank you when your buddies are eating shit cleaning your roost off their helmets. 

A few months back I did a MX tag team on my buddy's YZ450FX after practicing all morning on my Beta 500. The Yamaha was nothing special, and I had to twist it harder to get the same results as the Beta, especially in the corners it lacked grunt. Certainly not in a different league.