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Yamaha = wide body

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2 hours ago, ah665 said:

Fair point. For what it's worth, I like the standard modded 125 better than the Athena kitted 144 I rode a few years back.

But anyways, as far as the Gasgas I think it is also a good choice. I personally don't think the adjustable PV matters much on the 125. I didn't think it really changed the characteristics of the 250 that much (which I think on that bike it is more important to tame the hit), but just my opinion. Plus, I think the YZ power comes on exactly how I want it to, you just have to shift a little more often than a KTM, up top. But you maybe make up for that with easier riding coming out of corners or hitting jumps directly out of corners. But the GG should be a nice pick-up. I hope to try my friend's this spring. And my other friend that just got the 150SX, so looks like I am out-gunned on the small bores by some of my buddies lol. 

I have to disagree , the spring  change on the 250 PV is night and day ,from feeling like a rag in airbox to a fire breather 

 

We are taking 8 hp  in places 

 

 

I have not done any on the 125 but my friend did the red and yellow springs ,small changes but still more than a pipe etc 

 

The GG suspension is meant to be the best aer so far,the shock bottoms with fast riders but I never have had that  on any modern KTM even when soft

 

The 144 yz I rode was a hdr one , it had 37 hp compared to 38 on my  STD 150 ,so pretty fast 

 

 

For the record I think the yz 125 handles very slightly better than the sx 

 

The pistons don't last or the clutches and it's cable 

Edited by mog

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I've had KTM 125's, 200, 250's, and 300's, the powervalve adjustment can take the bike from mild to wild, it makes huge swings how the power is delivered. The operation is different between the small bores and the larger bores, though I haven't any experience on the newer motors. 

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43 minutes ago, mog said:

I have to disagree , the spring  change on the 250 PV is night and day ,from feeling like a rag in airbox to a fire breather 

 

We are taking 8 hp  in places 

 

 

I have not done any on the 125 but my friend did the red and yellow springs ,small changes but still more than a pipe etc 

 

The GG suspension is meant to be the best aer so far,the shock bottoms with fast riders but I never have had that  on any modern KTM even when soft

 

The 144 yz I rode was a hdr one , it had 37 hp compared to 38 on my  STD 150 ,so pretty fast 

 

 

For the record I think the yz 125 handles very slightly better than the sx 

 

The pistons don't last or the clutches and it's cable 

 

11 minutes ago, KTMRider4Life said:

I've had KTM 125's, 200, 250's, and 300's, the powervalve adjustment can take the bike from mild to wild, it makes huge swings how the power is delivered. The operation is different between the small bores and the larger bores, though I haven't any experience on the newer motors. 

I have to admit that I only have felt the middle spring and having it adjusted aggressively to as mild as it can be (using the Kreft tool.) So maybe it is unfair for me to make that claim w/o feeling the other spring. But I just don't like the KTM 250sx motor lol. I like the YZ 250 better (linear build). I think the KTM 2 strokes are great bikes, but just the YZs are easier for me to get comfortable on and there is nothing about those bikes that I feel like is holding me back vs a KTM. That being said, I am interested to ride with my good friend who got the 150 and like I said, another friend has the GG 125. 

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I don't like the STD power curve  of the TC , it starts ok , then hits hard ,then signs off ,the older 17 was nicer 

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3 minutes ago, ah665 said:

Yes, the bike I spent some time on is the '18 TC250, as you know. Awesome bike, just not for me.

The 20 is worse for hp than the 18, the 18 was better 

 

The beauty of the KTM 125 250 and 150 is his tunable it is 

 

STD 250 is 46 hp , you can have 43 or 50 easy , a xcw head smooths the power , a pipe gives it way more top 

 

If you want more mid skim the STD head 

 

Keihin carb with stic makes it insane 

 

The yz 125 is great but a gyrt engine only gives same hp as STD KTM lol 

 

The yz 250 is too much vibes and feel old with cable clutch ,brakes not like KTM ,heavier feel 

 

Imo they are the most ahead of the time bikes ever made , totally competitive now 

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Your assessment of the YZ250 is accurate, I can't argue that. And I agree that the YZ125 was for sure way ahead of it's time and still a great bike. 

As far as the 4strokes, I will be interested to see if the 22s are new , the 450 should be if they are on the same cycle. I think this summer I may buy a new 4stroke. I assume the 250f is going to be the same since the 21 got a bunch of updates. So I am unsure if I want to buy a 22 and then the 23 potentially be all new. Because as much as the 250F is pretty close to perfect, if they could slim them down a bit, it'd be worth the wait. And watching Barcia on the Gasgas compared to the Yam, he looks like he's on a 250F now. Will be interesting to see how he does come race time. 

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The factory edition  21s are still the same so no new 22 platform ,I don't think KTM know to to improve it now ?

 

The 250f could go for  more bottom and mid but they say the gas gas had that with the different pipe alone 

 

I think the cycle will be one year delayed with covid 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, ah665 said:

Because as much as the 250F is pretty close to perfect, if they could slim them down a bit, it'd be worth the wait.

When was the last big redesign of the YZ250F, 2019?  So 2023 would be the next one?

Idk how much more slimming down they can do.  They're kinda stuck with the tall wide frame, especially since the 450 and 250 share the same frame.  I can't see Yamaha going away from that.

IMO all they could really do is go for significant weight loss.  And so far, Yamaha hasn't given any indication that major weight loss is on the agenda.

Edited by redrider144

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5 minutes ago, mog said:

The factory edition  21s are still the same so no new 22 platform ,I don't think KTM know to to improve it now ?

 

The 250f could go for  more bottom and mid but they say the gas gas had that with the different pipe alone 

 

I think the cycle will be one year delayed with covid 

 

 

Ya KTM 22's are not going to change to the next gen yet. I assume in '23. I think they will continue to tweak the AER fork and eventually it will be very good. And with Husky experimenting with the shorter units, it will be interesting to see how that comes into play. It has been hit/miss in shootouts, depending on the media outlet. Their bikes just need to rev faster (250F and 350.) That's my biggest complaint. 

4 minutes ago, redrider144 said:

When was the last big redesign of the YZ250F, 2019?  So 2023 would be the next one?

Ya the 450 is 1 year ahead of the 250F in the cycle. 450 new gen in 18, big mid-gen update in 20 and BNG in 21. 250F followed in 19 and mid-gen update this year for 21. So I expect maybe a new 450 in 22 and 250F in '23. But I'm not sure that I want to wait until '23 for a new bike. 

Edited by ah665

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I don't get the PV adjustments, they just clip your power.  Why do that?  If it hits too hard on top run a gnarly pipe or something to shift more power down low, don't just arbitrarily clip it.

My 2018 TC250 with PC exhaust, drilled airbox, red PV spring, and PWK is a reasonable engine that can be made to work.  It isn't the fastest 250 I've ridden nor is it the slowest.  Midrange is a bit weak compared to the Honda but has better overrev.  It's a good platform, lots of compromises but the bike isn't going to be the reason you aren't going fast.  I can't think of a single thing better about a YZ250, some like the linear motor of the YZ better but I consider that a preference thing.

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55 minutes ago, mxaniac said:

I don't get the PV adjustments, they just clip your power.  Why do that?  If it hits too hard on top run a gnarly pipe or something to shift more power down low, don't just arbitrarily clip it.

My 2018 TC250 with PC exhaust, drilled airbox, red PV spring, and PWK is a reasonable engine that can be made to work.  It isn't the fastest 250 I've ridden nor is it the slowest.  Midrange is a bit weak compared to the Honda but has better overrev.  It's a good platform, lots of compromises but the bike isn't going to be the reason you aren't going fast.  I can't think of a single thing better about a YZ250, some like the linear motor of the YZ better but I consider that a preference thing.

Whilst the Dyno tend to show it clipping ,it makes subtle differences to the upper low end as well ,you don't see on the Dyno as I think it's more on part throttle it happened 

 

The green spring with enduro head and shorty dep have massive 1/4 throttle power ,it felt fast considering lol 

 

But once fully open it was a dog 

The red spring was the opposite, so much torque 

 

More than the Dyno shows 

 

I didn't Dyno the red ,I only rode it back to back , the difference in pickup was remarkable 

One felt like a 220 ,the other 280 

 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, mog said:

The red spring was the opposite, so much torque 

More than the Dyno shows 

I didn't Dyno the red ,I only rode it back to back , the difference in pickup was remarkable 

Yeah I'm hoping I get my suspension back this week, gonna put the yellow PV spring back in and try it.  My 300 is too gnarly right now.

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2 hours ago, ah665 said:

Might be something to those other clamps working better with that fork.

Yea, that makes it hard to compare the 2 when the clamps are different.

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You posting that MTB brings up a good point. I wonder if maybe there is a lot of behind the scenes development on electric race bikes, which means that the production cycles of the gas-powered race bikes go longer? Like maybe there won't be an all new Yamaha platform for a few years longer, if the money is split to go towards the electric bikes. It's only a matter of time. Even KTM is now in a longer generation cycle than they have been doing previously. And really the last 2 generations aren't really changed much anyways.

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32 minutes ago, ah665 said:

You posting that MTB brings up a good point. I wonder if maybe there is a lot of behind the scenes development on electric race bikes, which means that the production cycles of the gas-powered race bikes go longer? Like maybe there won't be an all new Yamaha platform for a few years longer, if the money is split to go towards the electric bikes. It's only a matter of time. Even KTM is now in a longer generation cycle than they have been doing previously. And really the last 2 generations aren't really changed much anyways.

So you're saying Suzuki has a kick ass eRM?  🙂

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4 minutes ago, mxaniac said:

So you're saying Suzuki has a kick ass eRM?  🙂

I think it's reasonable to speculate that there is some e-development going on behinds the scenes, so that could slow progress of the gas bikes. That and just the sport/market in a bit of a valley, in some ways. 

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