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Hannibal Babar

Beta4Stroke front wheel centered....

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Hello

I just found that my beta  390rr 2019 front wheel has a lot of offset...  nearly 1 cm more space on the right side.....

Forks are ok and straight.  

Spacers and all are positonned just like in factory drawing...

evrything seems "fine"as brake rotor and brake system are perfectly  aligned,. and suit and work well....

are yours the same ?

measure gives 10cm form rim side to ext fork on right and 8.5cm same on brake side....

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7 minutes ago, Hannibal Babar said:

checked again, it has all parts, in right order... Forks have no constraint...

 

 

image.png.a9ad62f3047f920cb38e3b911f492ed6.png

 

 

 

Edited by Hannibal Babar

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well tell me the process... !  Unless you are forging triple clamps, forks have natural "no constraint" position... Im' not gonna force my lower forks just to reach a zero offset... Teach me ! because it's not 1 mm offset and the forks are not bent...

 

i'm used  to the usual universal   1/ screw axle  2/ pump the free  fork, bike on ground  3/ see that fork took it's natural "place" 4 / screw the bolts....

worked for decades on all bikes...

 

 

 

Edited by Hannibal Babar
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Yeah it's not from fork alignment. Odd thing is my 2020 300rr race is even, my buddies 2020 500rrs is like yours. It appears to be in the lacing of wheels, why would they lace them to be offset on some bike and not others though.

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i don't know about your alignment numbers, i personally use the MotionPro tool and have never measured with a ruler, but the extra space you see on the right-hand (non-disc) side is normal. the axle has a lip there that the spacers tighten up against ... then the right leg 'floats' on that exposed portion of axle to get your alignment correct.

EDIT:

forgot to say, your "universal" process for alignment isn't setting the legs parallel. it's just letting the right leg land where it does after the bounce/brake tap, that doesn't mean parallel, which is what is required for proper action.

 

Edited by typeone

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If you get out the ruler, you will go insane....

If the triple clamps are not cast/machined wrong, if the forks are not bent, if the axle is not bent, and if the wheel lacing is done to spec, you will still find it to be not very precision via measurment, but it is the best you can hope for.

If you were to start measuring everything for 'plumb and square', you would find out it's not, even brand new.

Using the Motion Pro fork alignment tool will often make the forks BIND because they will be forced out of their natural 'resting' position. Most triple clamps are not perfectly machined ! Getting the tubes to meausure parrallel may mean making them tweaked to get that measurement.

Put the axle and wheel on, leave the front wheel off the ground,  tighten the nut to about 15ftlbs, tighten the brake side fork clamp bolts, spin the front wheel as fast as you can, and jam on the brakes. Do this a few times. Now tighten the non brake side fork clamp bolts. Put the bike on the ground and tighten to torque spec.

The AXLE must move freely in the right lug, no matter what. Must be free of burrs in the lug and on the axle, and be fully greased.

The forks being naturally 'resting', (not being forced to comply with a measurement or alignment tool) is the best you can do.

 

Edited by KRAYNIAL
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This. ^^^

Looks correct to me.  Once you align wheel on left fork leg via tightening large bolt and squeezing front brake, the right leg just is in a neutral position. 

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1 hour ago, KRAYNIAL said:

If you get out the ruler, you will go insane....

If the triple clamps are not cast/machined wrong, if the forks are not bent, if the axle is not bent, and if the wheel lacing is done to spec, you will still find it to be not very precision via measurment, but it is the best you can hope for.

If you were to start measuring everything for 'plumb and square', you would find out it's not, even brand new.

Using the Motion Pro fork alignment tool will often make the forks BIND because they will be forced out of their natural 'resting' position. Most triple clamps are not perfectly machined ! Getting the tubes to meausure parrallel may mean making them tweaked to get that measurement.

Put the axle and wheel on, leave the front wheel off the ground,  tighten the nut to about 15ftlbs, tighten the brake side fork clamp bolts, spin the front wheel as fast as you can, and jam on the brakes. Do this a few times. Now tighten the non brake side fork clamp bolts. Put the bike on the ground and tighten to torque spec.

The AXLE must move freely in the right lug, no matter what. Must be free of burrs in the lug and on the axle, and be fully greased.

The forks being naturally 'resting', (not being forced to comply with a measurement or alignment tool) is the best you can do.

 

Agree on your comments. just that on my XRR by example, whatever I did, wheel was always centered. Not searching the perfect offset of zero mm, but even looking at it or using a finger as approximative spacer, it was correct .

On the beta , whatever the process ( traditionnal lift then ground  compress, or the up ground spinning/stop as yours I forgot but did  back30 min ago 🙂 ) there's a big offset on right fork foot... I don't really give a s..t about it, but was curious to know if others guys had same, in case i forgot ( or factory forgot !) to put some spacers or others parts....   I've seen worst on some KAwa I had in past 😎

For the motionpro tool which will make constraint on fork, I won't use a bling tool like that . Typone, the right process for a fork is not to be "forced". That"s why so many guys have spis and other problems (not mentionning overtighting the top fork in triple). And as i don't use any thin rope, triangulation or other laser to have a super aligned back wheel, It's even not relevant for me... Any tool will take the left leg as reference , just because you have the brakes / pads  which are in a fixed position bolt on  this fork foot... So there only one fix left position, with rotor centered on brake system.

Anyway, if others have some right foot fork pics, I'm in 😉

 

 

 

Edited by Hannibal Babar
bad typing :(

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4 hours ago, Texask5 said:

Yeah it's not from fork alignment. Odd thing is my 2020 300rr race is even, my buddies 2020 500rrs is like yours. It appears to be in the lacing of wheels, why would they lace them to be offset on some bike and not others though.

yep , gone at the end with this conclusion too... As i pulled out one month ago the front and carefylly checked the possible bending of forks, all good...  

Had same big offset in past  on a yamaha, due to rebuilt of wheel, following the advice to the letter from yamaha datas :( <

The guy in charge, ( his job was to only rebuid wheels) told me this umbrella offset on front wheel  was rather usual, to have less deformation when hard braking.

update : spokes lacing is "centered". so Elvis is still waited to be seen, and aliens still hide in enduro woods.

Last but least of my problems now that I feel less alone, and will  cornering super fast on left and fast on right 🤪😉

 

thanks for all, enjoy your rides  !!!

...

Edited by Hannibal Babar

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The MP Alignment Tool is referenced to the center of the upper tubes and locked when done correctly, on the full dia not the taper and with no decals to interfere.  If you find your forcing the lowers into alignment excessively then you are not using it correctly.   It should take no more than a slight nudge of a mm or so.  If the axel and lug are clean and smooth, sometimes the force of the centering the tubes in the "V" blocks from the rear is enough.  Saying the tool is BS and you can do it better without is like saying your feel is better than using a torque wrench.   If the spacers are the same, caliper hanger is the same, fork lugs the same, the issue with these bikes is wheel build.  

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1 hour ago, GP said:

The MP Alignment Tool is referenced to the center of the upper tubes and locked when done correctly, on the full dia not the taper and with no decals to interfere.  If you find your forcing the lowers into alignment excessively then you are not using it correctly.   It should take no more than a slight nudge of a mm or so.  If the axel and lug are clean and smooth, sometimes the force of the centering the tubes in the "V" blocks from the rear is enough.  Saying the tool is BS and you can do it better without is like saying your feel is better than using a torque wrench.   If the spacers are the same, caliper hanger is the same, fork lugs the same, the issue with these bikes is wheel build.  

I don't say this tool and any  tool BTW is bullshit. You just describe : fix one mm 🙂 Let's say there's a pb or a not correct setting somewhere. Why use constraint on a moving part just to pretend be parallel.

Joy of internet is to presume each guy experience. I don't presume your experience...  In nearly half  century of riding, and working for some motorcycles companies too for events, I add privilege to meet rather good and clever people who where not in  the new internet stream... Never one even suggested to put forks in //...  they come like that or...not. Wanting to force a sliding /moving part was for them ( and IMHO too) an aberration. And all racers, (which I'm not )  that I know think the same....

for the torque wrench, I suppose you know that even the mechanical guys on dakar don't use them fro maintenance..  I'm using it on clean dry bolts and threads, but it's not the panacea around oily parts  which are easily overtorqued (and under torqued if durty or galvanic oxydized inside) .... Famous examples are the quantity of bolts broken with a torque wrench , when used on oil filter covers or sump.... 😉   And for the record, my friends in garage renovating ferrari, lamborghini, jaguar,etc.. use torque wrenches only for engine bolts assembly ... ( if you like cars type www.atelierautomobile.fr )

My bike is nearly brand new but second hand. So I just try to gain knowledge about its particularities....

 

UPDATE : I saw the utube video , at 5' min they are using  your tool... So if i understand correctly, it' an help to know if your forks are //. Ok  so what ???  As you will make the spin wheel brake or whatever method to let them seat in natural position, job is done...  ""(635) Top 10 Dirt Bike Suspension Tips Do's & Don'ts "" -     www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B4zb2dfijw

 

No controversy, just still try to figure the utility of this tool...  Because at the end, left fork will take its natural unconstrained place...  If my forks are bent, i don't need it to know it... Insert other media

Edited by Hannibal Babar

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Hub is not centered between the fork lugs and that is absolutely normal. Wheel lacing is dished to one side by roughly 10mm per your measurements. Perhaps try to negate some of that dish if you feel it necessary by loosening the "close side" a few turns on those nipples, and take up the slack on the "far side". While you are at it might as well take some real critical measurements of the rear wheel dish/alignment/plumb with the swingarm and see if it is also out of alignment. It probably is. Next question will be should you true to the swingarm, or get chain rings to be on the same plane. I am of the opinion the alignment of chainrings is more critical for wear purposes, even if the front to rear wheel alignment is off and the bike is "crabbing" in a straight line. 

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Built a steel framed floor jig to align some of my road bikes front to back. Learned how far off bikes really were, bikes that were made to go 160mph. 

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My 2020 500 RRS has the same offset. I noticed it a few months ago but after checking everything it seems to be normal. Fork alignment done. Only aftermarket is disc guard but that has same wheel spacers as stock. 

2D99165B-FB99-4212-A5AA-EE194467EBBB.jpeg

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30 minutes ago, redhurricane said:

Hub is not centered between the fork lugs and that is absolutely normal. Wheel lacing is dished to one side by roughly 10mm per your measurements. Perhaps try to negate some of that dish if you feel it necessary by loosening the "close side" a few turns on those nipples, and take up the slack on the "far side". While you are at it might as well take some real critical measurements of the rear wheel dish/alignment/plumb with the swingarm and see if it is also out of alignment. It probably is. Next question will be should you true to the swingarm, or get chain rings to be on the same plane. I am of the opinion the alignment of chainrings is more critical for wear purposes, even if the front to rear wheel alignment is off and the bike is "crabbing" in a straight line. 

agree,  bad chain adjustments can make carnage. and the lower chain guide is too very narrow on Beta.... ( don't ask me how I know it 😉 )

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bTW English is not my mother language. so I apologize if  my comments could be seen a bit rude sometimes. Still french thinking 😉 

Last thing I want on these useful forums is to argue or fight 😉 Appreciate all your comments

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Both of my 2020 2Ts have been like this. It's kind of annoying because you get noticeable gouging in the brake side fork guard from the tire side knobs sweeping rocks and mud past it - while the non-brake side is clear.

Someone on the facebook Beta group brought this up a while back:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/251998879398570/permalink/411583053440151

Forgive me while I go all HDR and post screenshots for the non-fbook users:
image.png.d3aebfae8f1b5f20872c8abc311c8ed4.png

It's not an easy fix and it's a pretty common non-issue.

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