Beta4Stroke first rekluse failure

[campdirt]

18 hours ago, redhurricane said:

I had to resurrect this train wreck. 

 

comments about Chuck Norris using his teeth on a clutch cable. unskilled riders using the "auto-crutch". LOL

I've actually ridden a KTM Freeride with a broken throttle cable ferrule at the throttle tube, didn't use my teeth but wrapped the cable around my pinky finger and rode out 15 miles with it like that. I can no longer clink toast with English Tea cups. Maybe not really a loss there. 

 

Reason for my post, the wife's 2018 xtrainer was exhibiting signs of rekluse clutch problems. She's a competent rider, good with a manual clutch. Understands how the rekluse should operate and be used. None the less, her bike was creeping at idle with clutch pulled in and slipping at high rpm high load scenarios. Free play gain set correctly. So I pulled it down to look- 

 

Delamination, and no history of water intrusion in the gearbox. I know her mechanic well. We have conversations in the mirror often. 200 hours on the clutch pack, EXP ring still well within operating thickness. Only friction discs that had delamination were in the inboard side, furthest from the exp ring. Three frictions with pad material lost, some with 50% of the pads gone. Two different oils used in this bike in the last 200 hours, Rotella T5, and Castrol Transynd full synthetic (I have an Allison transmission in the truck and always have leftover fluid on oil changes). Steels are not overheated, but do show mild grooving, perhaps from pad material moving about in the bath. In all the oil changes I have done on this bike, NEVER has there been the milkshake dump. Brett at Rekluse being sent these pics tomorrow to discuss. 

 

 

if moisture isnt the culprit then its  manufactoring  used to see lots of borg warner clutch plates from the late 70's early 80's in t-400 transmissions look just like that after 5-7 yrs of use with no sign of water/coolant just delaminated friction plates.

[randysoo]

that delamination looks exactly like the issue I had. I've had 6 or 7 rekluse autos from the old z-start pro to the core exp and now the cx. First delam issue. My gearbox oil was emulsified. I don't think from water but friction material. Just call rekluse. They'll offer you 50% off a rebuild kit

[randysoo]

3 hours ago, campdirt said:

if moisture isnt the culprit then its  manufactoring  used to see lots of borg warner clutch plates from the late 70's early 80's in t-400 transmissions look just like that after 5-7 yrs of use with no sign of water/coolant just delaminated friction plates.

I think it is a manufacturing thing. they have to make the plates so thin to get more plates and still have room for the ring

[campdirt]

could be. also maybe the plates were transported and or stored in a damp location when new. a seasoned plate is usually tougher than a new friction plate. or maybe 200 hrs. is their life span.idk.  rekluse will know.

[motoxgiant]

12 hours ago, campdirt said:

could be. also maybe the plates were transported and or stored in a damp location when new. a seasoned plate is usually tougher than a new friction plate. or maybe 200 hrs. is their life span.idk.  rekluse will know.

The plates are thin to be sure, but I wouldn't think delamination is ever the right failure mode.

[Hans Schmid]

12 hours ago, campdirt said:

could be. also maybe the plates were transported and or stored in a damp location when new. a seasoned plate is usually tougher than a new friction plate. or maybe 200 hrs. is their life span.idk.  rekluse will know.

Or 'shit happens'?

Did you know, on most of their plates, those pads are glued on by hand. Could have been bad glue or glue wasn't warm enough before applying the pads.

I haven't had my plates do that, but I've had an EXP ring do it. Rekluse sent me a new ring

Edited October 29, 2021 by Hans Schmid

[campdirt]

i did not know that they are hand glued? usualy the friction bonding process is at an exact temp. pressure and time etc. with a rekluse properly set up and ridden correctly the clutch plates should actualy last longer due to the perfect engagement. there is a lot of variables in the dirtbike world so "shit can happen" 

[Hans Schmid]

14 minutes ago, campdirt said:

i did not know that they are hand glued? usualy the friction bonding process is at an exact temp. pressure and time etc. with a rekluse properly set up and ridden correctly the clutch plates should actualy last longer due to the perfect engagement. there is a lot of variables in the dirtbike world so "shit can happen" 

Yeah, it's actually pretty amazing consider the production and labour that would require... 

[motoxgiant]

5 hours ago, Hans Schmid said:

Or 'shit happens'?

Did you know, on most of their plates, those pads are glued on by hand. Could have been bad glue or glue wasn't warm enough before applying the pads.

I haven't had my plates do that, but I've had an EXP ring do it. Rekluse sent me a new ring

I would have believed 'bonded under heat and pressure' ... not so much hand placed. The thickness of the glue alone could cause tolerance issues, not even accounting for flatness and alignment problems.

[randysoo]

the friction material on the new rekluse plate is so thin. it appears to be applied on . like a thick liquid that's almost silk screened on

[campdirt]

in auto and light truck transmissions there are kits available by raybestos and alto that increase clutch count with thinner plates.yes it does increase torque load capacity but i also torn some down with those kits and the clutch pack is burned up,i believe that the thinner plates heat up and distort then slip which snowballs into a mess in some cases. thicker material can absorb more heat safely.

[redhurricane]

New frictions and steels on the way, ordered over the phone this morning, arriving Monday UPS. 

[firffighter]

44 minutes ago, redhurricane said:

New frictions and steels on the way, ordered over the phone this morning, arriving Monday UPS. 

Surely after this fiasco you're going to remove the rekluse crutch  and go back to using the left finger God gave you? ?

Sorry,  been a bit boring here lately and a nice Rekluse debate would spice things up ?

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by firffighter

[shrubitup]

59 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Surely after this fiasco you're going to remove the rekluse crutch  and go back to using the left finger God gave you? ?

Sorry,  been a bit boring here lately and a nice Rekluse debate would spice things up ?

 

hOw dArE U QuEsTiOn sUCh A pRoDUKT!!

[redhurricane]

58 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Surely after this fiasco you're going to remove the rekluse crutch  and go back to using the left finger God gave you? ?

Sorry,  been a bit boring here lately and a nice Rekluse debate would spice things up ?

 

That would require buying stock Beta frictions and steels. seems like a lot of money and the comments I get from the wife when we ride really rough technical stuff that she cleans and says "this is like cheating!!!!" are worth keeping the bike setup as is since she clearly loves it. I think instead I will buy another bike with a stock clutch, like a 200RE if/when they are available in 2022. She has not yet ridden a 200, and the demo is coming in December. Who knows. Maybe a 200RR and 200RE will come home. 

1 minute ago, shrubitup said:

hOw dArE U QuEsTiOn sUCh A pRoDUKT!!

See what using a manual clutch does to your typing skills? Carpal tunnel for sure. Get help. 

[firffighter]

Off topic a bit,  but with the internal slave cylinder on the 200, has Rekluse made a model for the Beta 200 since all of the current Rekluse models have the external slave cylinder? 

 

 

[redhurricane]

4 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Off topic a bit,  but with the internal slave cylinder on the 200, has Rekluse made a model for the Beta 200 since all of the current Rekluse models have the external slave cylinder? 

 

 

No. I approached them in 2019 and at that time they said they were considering it, but it is not yet on the radar for production. If they did, I would assume it would be similar to models made for cable clutch bikes, with the adjustment on the EXP ring. Problem being, with no other external free play gain adjustment any changes in said gain would need to be done internally- pulling the clutch cover and making ring adjustments. PITA. It's all good, the 200 can remain manual only. 

[firffighter]

3 minutes ago, redhurricane said:

It's all good, the 200 can remain manual only

I'm not a fan of Rekluse in smaller bores.