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Burger72

RR 200 forks …. Any luck on making them good ?

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Has anyone actually found a solution to the std RR forks ? 
straight talking there just about ok but that it as far as I’m concerned, I’ve had 19-20-21 and now as 22 and feel zero improvement If being honest.
There harsh and deflect badly, in dry rocky conditions they just don’t feel like they absorb anything.

Over the years I’ve tried increasing the oil level , different springs and obviously clicker settings and I’ve had an RE with KYB which are obviously a better fork fork racing but that’s not what I’m addressing here. These forks / bike is aimed at trail riding / basic level ridding / racing. IMO they should be at leat on par with the current WP Explore but they feel way off.

I would be happy to thro money at them with in reason if there was a happy outcome but I’ve yet to see anyone who had achieved that. I have tried going up a spring rate “to be higher in the stroke” and also matched my weight to the correct springs. Currently I weigh approximately 180lbs with out cloths 

 …… your thoughts / findings etc would be great ……

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Having gone from a 2020 200RR to a KTM with Xplor forks, I would say the Sachs were slightly better. That was only after changing the springs and filling with proper oil. The Sachs have a strange ability to destroy fork oil after only 10 hours and I could feel the performance dropping off very quickly.

I have heard good reports of the Dal Soggio inserts and valve kits. I don't know if K-Tech do an ORVS kit for the Sachs but their WP kits are a big improvement over stock Xplors.

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The Sachs are pretty good. The cheapest improvement is the Dal Soggio B-one kit. $300. Plenty of other options.

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4 hours ago, Burger72 said:

Has anyone actually found a solution to the std RR forks ? 
straight talking there just about ok but that it as far as I’m concerned, I’ve had 19-20-21 and now as 22 and feel zero improvement If being honest.
There harsh and deflect badly, in dry rocky conditions they just don’t feel like they absorb anything.

Over the years I’ve tried increasing the oil level , different springs and obviously clicker settings and I’ve had an RE with KYB which are obviously a better fork fork racing but that’s not what I’m addressing here. These forks / bike is aimed at trail riding / basic level ridding / racing. IMO they should be at leat on par with the current WP Explore but they feel way off.

I would be happy to thro money at them with in reason if there was a happy outcome but I’ve yet to see anyone who had achieved that. I have tried going up a spring rate “to be higher in the stroke” and also matched my weight to the correct springs. Currently I weigh approximately 180lbs with out cloths 

 …… your thoughts / findings etc would be great ……

Springs, oil height and clickers are the extent of your suspension adventure? 

A revalve 'should' get you to where you want. I've ridden some really good Sach setups but my personal experience in forks is zero

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2 hours ago, Hans Schmid said:

Springs, oil height and clickers are the extent of your suspension adventure? 

A revalve 'should' get you to where you want. I've ridden some really good Sach setups but my personal experience in forks is zero

So you have zero personal experience but your question the extent of my suspension adventure ….. not trying to be a dick but as I’ve stated I’ve had these forks on all 200’s since the bike was released in 19 and the forks have been crap std …. This is why I asked if any one has had luck with anything to make them worth while, re-valve , cartridge upgrade , anything ?? I’ve not found one person who has yet to tell me they found a solution to the forks initial harsh / brick like feel …..

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My 21 200RR forks went from "harsh and deflecting on rocky singletrack" to smooth and predictable after I added the DalSaggio B-One Kit.  The kit replaces the compression and rebound basevalve stacks and comes with a completely different midvalve assembly for the compression side.   My weight without gear is 175lbs.  Stock springs, 5w Motul fluid set at 150mm. I also added a set of used flex bars I already had.  My forks have never bottomed since this work and the faster I go the better they feel.

For less than $300 this has got to be the cheapest fork fix I have ever done.

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4 minutes ago, Burger72 said:

So you have zero personal experience but your question the extent of my suspension adventure ….. not trying to be a dick but as I’ve stated I’ve had these forks on all 200’s since the bike was released in 19 and the forks have been crap std …. This is why I asked if any one has had luck with anything to make them worth while, re-valve , cartridge upgrade , anything ?? I’ve not found one person who has yet to tell me they found a solution to the forks initial harsh / brick like feel …..

Nope, I have never owned a Beta either. But I do a bit of testing for my tuner on customers bikes due to my ability to provide fairly accurate feedback. I've been privileged to have this access. My experience goes from a multitude of forks and applications. From Lucky Cartridges, Dal Soggio Spheres, Showas, 4cs, AER, KYB and even CV forks... 

But... In your initial post you mentioned nothing regarding an actual revalve. So IMO that's where I would start if it was my bike. Especially if the alternative were putting a set of $$$ cartridges was the next option... 

Edited by Hans Schmid
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31 minutes ago, Hans Schmid said:

Nope, I have never owned a Beta either. But I do a bit of testing for my tuner on customers bikes due to my ability to provide fairly accurate feedback. I've been privileged to have this access. My experience goes from a multitude of forks and applications. From Lucky Cartridges, Dal Soggio Spheres, Showas, 4cs, AER, KYB and even CV forks... 

But... In your initial post you mentioned nothing regarding an actual revalve. So IMO that's where I would start if it was my bike. Especially if the alternative were putting a set of $$$ cartridges was the next option... 

Riding other peoples bikes is not the same as owning / riding / racing and living with your own bike.

My initial post is asking if anyone has found a solution to the problem ? Obviously including re-valving etc … I’ve yet to meet anyone who has also found them to be less than adequate and has made massive improvements by having a re-valve , other forks / brands yes 100% But I’m talking 100% Sachs Beta 20-22 rr forks specifically 

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37 minutes ago, oldman said:

My 21 200RR forks went from "harsh and deflecting on rocky singletrack" to smooth and predictable after I added the DalSaggio B-One Kit.  The kit replaces the compression and rebound basevalve stacks and comes with a completely different midvalve assembly for the compression side.   My weight without gear is 175lbs.  Stock springs, 5w Motul fluid set at 150mm. I also added a set of used flex bars I already had.  My forks have never bottomed since this work and the faster I go the better they feel.

For less than $300 this has got to be the cheapest fork fix I have ever done.

Excellent input this is what I’ve been hoping to hear. I’ve also a Sherco 300sef factory and that bike is so plush and stable but still fun and supper poppy. I want the RR to be the same / similar in performance 

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6 minutes ago, Burger72 said:

Riding other peoples bikes is not the same as owning / riding / racing and living with your own bike.

My initial post is asking if anyone has found a solution to the problem ? Obviously including re-valving etc … I’ve yet to meet anyone who has also found them to be less than adequate and has made massive improvements by having a re-valve , other forks / brands yes 100% But I’m talking 100% Sachs Beta 20-22 rr forks specifically 

Hold up, so how does a suspension company, who could be valving and servicing 100s of sets of suspension every year, for multiple years, and possibly never owned a Beta personally—is their information and experience irrelevant too? You understand that even at the elite pro level, lots of ex pros such as Trey Canard ride and test suspension settings for guys like Roczen and Sexton to use as a base line and test off? 

What if one of their customers owns a Beta and says his suspension is great after this tuner has touched his suspension? 

Unfortunately you will never be successful in this endeavor because you aren't open to information being provided, you want a hard yes/no answer...which when it comes to suspension is not possible. Suspension is subjective... 

Edited by Hans Schmid
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1 minute ago, Hans Schmid said:

Hold up, so how does a suspension company, who could be valving and servicing 100s of sets of suspension every year, for multiple years, and possibly never owned a Beta personally—is their information and experience irrelevant too?

What if one of their customers owns a Beta and says his suspension is great after this tuner has touched his suspension? 

Unfortunately you will never be successful in this endeavor because you aren't open to information being provided, you want a hard yes/no answer...which when it comes to suspension is not possible. Suspension is subjective... 

Your just suggesting obvious solutions pal , I’m not knocking you but I’m hoping to hear from people who actually own / ride and race on these forks who would understand personally where I’m coming from. I know loads of people with this bike and fork in the U.K. who have yet to have the forks even after a re-valve perform to the level they want. Most people feel they just have a harsh / cheap feel to them it’s not just me. 
So cheers for the advice but I would rather take first hand experience from people on this sight who have owned / ridden / races this bike and specific fork.

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1 minute ago, Burger72 said:

but I would rather take first hand experience from people on this sight who have owned / ridden / races this bike and specific fork.

That's a dangerous endeavor!

Do you personally know anyone here? 

Have you ridden with them?

Have you seen them ride?

How do you know they are giving you "good advice or input"?

See the entire problem with an anonymous forum is you have no idea who's behind that keyboard and you're putting your trust in someone who may have made up a persona on here that is completely different from the reality of what they claim to be.

My advice,  only seek advice from locals you know actually ride the same terrain and have similar abilities.  

Or, as Hans has mentioned,  talk to your local tuner who has worked on the same suspension package for hundreds of customers who are riding in a similar situation as yourself. 

Asking strangers on the internet who are anonymous is going to result in complete BS unless they actually will back it up with video evidence of where they ride and how they ride.

Good luck! 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, firffighter said:

That's a dangerous endeavor!

Do you personally know anyone here? 

Have you ridden with them?

Have you seen them ride?

How do you know they are giving you "good advice or input"?

See the entire problem with an anonymous forum is you have no idea who's behind that keyboard and you're putting your trust in someone who may have made up a persona on here that is completely different from the reality of what they claim to be.

My advice,  only seek advice from locals you know actually ride the same terrain and have similar abilities.  

Or, as Hans has mentioned,  talk to your local tuner who has worked on the same suspension package for hundreds of customers who are riding in a similar situation as yourself. 

Asking strangers on the internet who are anonymous is going to result in complete BS unless they actually will back it up with video evidence of where they ride and how they ride.

Good luck! 

So what your saying in general is these forums are pointless ? Even tho they have specifics for brand and even threads for suspension…. So unless I agree with someone it’s pointless ..? I’ve given a fair bit of first hand experience on jetting , heads and set up on this is forum as I’ve had personal experience and found most people to be pretty happy to receive it.

I’m not asking for personal setting etc just to hear from anyone with these forks that have managed to find a really good solution from the shit stock feel. Last time I looked there was a thread nearly 100 pages long from a guy tryout to achieve the same thing and most people on here were trying to help and offering there experience/ feed back. 
So again anyone with first hand results that wants to add info that would be cool if not forget it no problem 

Edited by Burger72
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22 minutes ago, Burger72 said:

Your just suggesting obvious solutions pal

Well in my experience, often the simplest problems require the simplest solutions.. 

I don't need to own every bike to understand general shortcomings when it comes to problems experienced across the board.

Poor suspension performance and its specific problem is not universal to one bike... 

But, in light, I've tried my best to give you a base solution that's affordable and likely to work, you just don't want to hear it...

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I don't know if it is still the case that Sachs use different shim sizes to everyone else. I know a couple of suspension gurus who have given up on Sachs forks as they can't get the shims except as oem spares which are ludicrously expensive. They just shrug their shoulders and go back to working on WP units as they know them back to front.

The one person who does seem to know what makes the Sachs units work in the UK is Steve Plain in Llandrindod Wells. He's been supporting British Championship riders on Betas for years. Pindie on the UK KTM Forum bought a 250RE from him last year and he had both ends sorted (KYB forks admittedly) when he bought it and is well impressed.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Burger72 said:

So what your saying in general is these forums are pointless ? Even tho they have specifics for brand and even threads for suspension…. So unless I agree with someone it’s pointless ..? I’ve given a fair bit of first hand experience on jetting , heads and set up on this is forum as I’ve had personal experience and found most people to be pretty happy to receive it.

I’m not asking for personal setting etc just to hear from anyone with these forks that have managed to find a really good solution from the shit stock feel. Last time I looked there was a thread nearly 100 pages long from a guy tryout to achieve the same thing and most people on here were trying to help and offering there experience/ feed back. 
So again anyone with first hand results that wants to add info that would be cool if not forget it no problem 

Forums are not pointless but no matter how well somebody describes everything (terrain, riding ability, personal preferences etc.) it is still impossible to get a direct solution. You have to ride with somebody to know for sure what the problem is. By the way, are you 100% sure that your forks are correctly aligned? Usually their problem is excessive dive and blow through the stroke, not direct deflection (this may happen when they are already compressed too much though). 

Regarding the forks mentioned, the solutions in hand are well known. It's either the B-ONE kit or a cartridge kit (DalSoggio or kyb). But you still may need to revalve any of those.... 

Also keep in mind that if racing is your first priority, then you should probably invest on a closed cartridge system (and learn to do basic maintenance as well). IIRC as a rider you are on the lightweight side so you may settle with the std units. But when attacking to obstacles, cc forks are a safer bet... 

26 minutes ago, Hubert Carpet said:

I don't know if it is still the case that Sachs use different shim sizes to everyone else. I know a couple of suspension gurus who have given up on Sachs forks as they can't get the shims except as oem spares which are ludicrously expensive. They just shrug their shoulders and go back to working on WP units as they know them back to front.

The one person who does seem to know what makes the Sachs units work in the UK is Steve Plain in Llandrindod Wells. He's been supporting British Championship riders on Betas for years. Pindie on the UK KTM Forum bought a 250RE from him last year and he had both ends sorted (KYB forks admittedly) when he bought it and is well impressed.

Yes, still 7mm compression & rebound shims. This is why the ds kit offers only shims on the base valves and not pistons. 

Edited by dirtbird
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2 hours ago, Burger72 said:

So what your saying in general is these forums are pointless ? Even tho they have specifics for brand and even threads for suspension…. So unless I agree with someone it’s pointless .

Put a lot of words in my mouth there.

My point was you're asking for advice from completely anonymous individuals when there are far more reliable sources at your convenience to reach out to.  

I'll say it again. 

What good is advice from someone you don't ride with, don't know their terrain,  their age, skill level,  experience,  etc? 

Suspension is one of the most subjective topics on any bike and advice is pretty useless unless you have the complete and total background from an individual and understand how it may apply to your personal situation and preferences. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hubert Carpet said:

I don't know if it is still the case that Sachs use different shim sizes to everyone else. I know a couple of suspension gurus who have given up on Sachs forks as they can't get the shims except as oem spares which are ludicrously expensive. They just shrug their shoulders and go back to working on WP units as they know them back to front.

The one person who does seem to know what makes the Sachs units work in the UK is Steve Plain in Llandrindod Wells. He's been supporting British Championship riders on Betas for years. Pindie on the UK KTM Forum bought a 250RE from him last year and he had both ends sorted (KYB forks admittedly) when he bought it and is well impressed.

Hey buddy 

Yep Plainer knows his stuff , last time I spoke to him ( a year back) he told me there isn’t much that he’s managed to do so far with the Sachs std forks. As you know most people / Tuners  in the U.K. won’t / don’t want to know when you mention Sachs.

Im running KYB on my Sherco factory and it’s real good. 
My on here was out of curiosity  just to see if anyone had managed to get there std forks working well and found a solution to how shit they are out the box (even after correct springs and oil etc ) 

Edited by Burger72
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4 minutes ago, firffighter said:

Put a lot of words in my mouth there.

My point was you're asking for advice from completely anonymous individuals when there are far more reliable sources at your convenience to reach out to.  

I'll say it again. 

What good is advice from someone you don't ride with, don't know their terrain,  their age, skill level,  experience,  etc? 

Suspension is one of the most subjective topics on any bike and advice is pretty useless unless you have the complete and total background from an individual and understand how it may apply to your personal situation and preferences. 

I’m not asking for advice lol for the last time I asked if anyone had found a solution to making the fork actually work well and not feel cheap and crap as it does out the box ! I’m not asking for personal setting just anyone’s experience who has actually made these fork work real well…. It’s pretty clear from the response so far that it’s a No 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Burger72 said:

I’m not asking for advice lol for the last time I asked if anyone had found a solution

A "solution" huh. Well, that's as subjective as it can possibly get and someone's "solution" could be your worst nightmare in terms of performance application to your specific situation and vice versa. 

Good luck 😜

Edited by firffighter
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