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02 VOR oil pump question

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Hi all, I own an 02 VOR - it started life as a SM - but now sports MX wheels, brakes and suspension parts.

I am happy with the bike but am wanting to increase the oil change interval time from the current 8 hours - this so I can do some weekends away. So the problem seems to be that it hasn't got a forced pump system and can thus not run a proper oil filter. - does this sound correct?

I have in mind a system to be able to perform this but was wondering have the later models got a pump - and if so what oil change interval is recommended. Also can parts be retro fitted to the 02 engine.

I work at Cosworth racing (in the UK) as an engine designer so engine mods don't scare me. I have my own mill / lathe so again can perform most operations.

Anyone have any views on this - or should I just change the bike?

Many thanks

Adrian

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According to the specs that I have, the EN and V-X models had forced oil pump, where as the MX model had wet sump/reed valve system. I'm not sure which system yours has.

Please keep us informed of what you do. I am interested for the same reasons that you mentioned. I thought that by adding an oil cooler to increase oil capacity, the oil life would be increased also. From all of my research, these bikes don't have a problem overheating, so an oil cooler isn't necessary. This is probably why the factory doesn't waste the resources and capitol on it.

All modern thumpers have a minimized oil capacity in order to keep the weight down. Therefore, all modern 4-strokes require the oil to be changed rather frequently. Adding an XR 400 type oil cooler and required lines, I think would add at least 600 cc of oil to the system, probably more.In addition, a standard external screw on type oil filter could be added somewhere in line.

Just my worthless 2 cents!

:thumbsup:

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It would be easier to change bike to E model and retrofit X parts to retain X style performance. Some parts are interchangeable but not this much, the big difference being cases.

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This is going to get a little confusing...but bear with me.

VOR actually had a variety of SM's in 2002. At least 3 or 4 itterations including leftover "01's. Just to review three unique to the 2002 model year I saw personally:

1) The first "SM" offered in 2002 was actually a '01 style bolt together frame with a '02 style magnesium MX style motor. The ones I saw were 530 non oil pumpers..as the MX 530 was. Great motor.."OK" flexy flyer Chassis. (Box in the steering head and then things get stiff again..if you have one of these look for the paint cracks where the main backbone meets the steering head)

2) SM-E was the "new" parimeter 2002 style frame with the "enduro" oil pumper & estart motors. Just standard parts book engineering...and they could easily be turned into the Enduro..and the Enduro's into them. Wheels, brakes and caliper mounting brackets & misc stuff available from VOR dealers.

3) I hope this next one is what you have..they were wonderful AND a bit on the special side. That is the SM-RC version. Basically a factory race machine through and through. Started with the 530 MX non E-start/non oil pumper magnesium case motor. Changed the primary gear ratio to more favorable to high speeds seen in the road sections of Super Motard racing. Had the Keihen 39mm carb and a bunch of other things that set them apart from the standard '02 SM-E's. (Including rims, tires, brakes, etc....I could itemize if you were really interested) If you have that version your a lucky guy.

Based on the premis that you went to a dirt configuration AND you don't have an oil pumper version...you either have the first I described (SM 530) or the third (SM-RC). Either way my question to you is why do you have to change the oil every 8 hours? Do you beat the bike that hard?

If you are using a good synthetic in the 15-50 range why not just top it off to get through an entire weekend and then change the oil? The old style motor would survive just fine with that approach with most types of riding with the exception of all out racing.(I know dealers will scream hearing this but they will survive. Very tough motors) If you are serious about racing you want to change the oil anyway to see whats going on inside between races... The only other time you have to be that critical is if your spending a lot of time slipping the clutch. If thats the case other things might be cheaper like changing gearing or evaluating riding technic. The crank/cam gear/reed valve oiling system gave plenty of oil to the head. Another little tidbit is the old style crank case pressure oiling systems NEEDED to have the oil at the proper height. 1.25 Quarts (US) worked for me. When the oil got down to under a quart, then the oiling system did get less effective. I would frequently ride my 2001 503 over a weekend of Hare Scrambles racing and practice and find NO filing what-so-ever in the oil and filter. (The only problem it ever had was ham handed mechaical types dropping a rocker arm shaft shim down into the crank case and finding out about it during the next ride)

The cases were infact different between the oil pumpers & non oil pumpers. I don't know of anyone trying to machine them to the same internal diminsion to house the pump. My guess is anything is possible (spent over 17 years in the CAD/CAM/CNC world myself) but why? If you had to have an oil pumper my bet is you could trade with someone in the VOR world especially if you had the SM-RC! (I would trade my 2002 450 EN oil pump motor cases & topend for an 2002 SM-RC 530 cases & top end in a heart beat..and then build it with my clutch & gear box into a hybrid blend of EN & RC parts...you get the oil pump, estart & all that stuff...I get the Magnesium cases, NO E-start, NO oil pump, No Ducati Wet Ignition...netting around 20 lbs in weight savings! What a deal!)

Any way thats my 2 cents worth and I hope you HAVE an RC as they were very unique. If you do, I hope you choose not to cut it up. :thumbsup:

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:thumbsup: that would have taken my two typing fingers hours! thanks weimedog.

In your answer you have actually raised a question that I would appreciate some feed back on.

As weimedog has acurately described, VOR has at times a blurred model run where parts can cross over models and years, for example later 04 models came with updated 05 water pumps. The Japanese release specific model years and are getting earlier and earlier at releasing the information, even though every one has this info, they still don't get any bikes untill much later on.

At the moment we're waiting for the word to release photo's (I know you're all waiting :devil:) but the Italians do things in their own time.

The question is, is it required to have all of this info in July/August or can it come at other times or just continual?

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There have been drivatives of this theme in several business experiences I have lived through ranging from selling software to pushing dirt piles....a general concept to live by:

Time stops for no man. Even if you live in Italy.

Another way to look at this is as my 10th grade Chemistry teach put it with a sign up by the clock on the wall. It said:

"Time passes...will you?"

Depending on the region it either is absolutly required to have that info or not. There are hot dirt bike buying cycles superimposed on a steady trickle of dirt bike sales. If a particular region decides to buy in August because of a fall race schedule (like certain states out west)....better have that next model year out because those who buy new don't want last years model. Simple as that. Last years model is defined when the competition releases NEXT years model...that all the current year bikes are LAST years bike. Perception is reality (yet another saying). So the answer is yes. Without a timely data release and bike delivery sales will be lost.

Period.

There are places where it isn't as important because of the riding season. Here in NYS some will wait until spring simply because we have 5 month winters. Buy a new model in November and you might ride it ONCE...then nothing until April 'cause we are under several feet of snow. (Artic zone....)

The second part of the answer is that it depends on the sales patterns in a given region.(expansion of first answer)

The bad part with VOR's historically is guys decide they want to buy a VOR/Husaberg/Vertimatti/KTM or Husky. Dealer population steers them towards KTM/Husky...but those others brands are still intreiging so they start looking for a reason to buy one. And they can't find ANYTHING!!!!! and then frustrated they go Orange or Husky. Thats reality. Need to educate the Italian Siesta partakers on the concept of LOST OPPORTUNITY! Or work and sell like hell BEFORE you go on vacation because.... :thumbsup:

time stops for no man. Even if your from Italy.

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time stops for no man. Even if your from Italy.

Unfortunately it's true! I'd like to stop my weight to ten years ago... :thumbsup:

Ciao, Alessandro.

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I do agree, but this does not solve the dilemma. ‘When in Rome, do as the Roman’s do’ and as such we go on siesta for August!

Me personally have not had an official holiday since I got married and went on my honeymoon (this was some time ago and itself is the subject of heated debate with my ‘management’) but August holidays are not going to change in Italy!

The Japanese Companies place the most importance on the US season so they are getting earlier with their release’s aimed at there, look at the RMZ450, how long ago was that released and how many are planning on buying it because of the info, do I think even though we have all seen the PR from Suzuki are we going to actually see the bike before any one else! Don’t hold your breath..

What I am trying to gather is when can we release new information and models that suit all and yet still compete with other manufacturers, have to remember the US is only one market/season and that our ‘target’ is not the mass supermarket produce buyer.

The focus is being aimed more at the rider that wants to try and compete with ‘factory’ bikes on an even level and the rider who wants quality.

The last bit can only be changed by changing the way the Dealer thinks and getting them to stock the models so that the buyer can ‘touch’. Dealer service is very important, but this will change as we go.

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OK - time to get the thread back on track - ahem!

Firstly - thanks for the prompt advice and info - all very useful.

The bike is actually an 01 bolt together frame with a 97mm (530) ally crankcase non oil pump engine.

Now I guess the good news is that it appears safe to run the engine for longer between oil changes if you are not abusing the clutch. So would 15hours be acceptable? - i.e. this would represent an average weekend away.

I am not sure about swopping the engine with an oil pump version but will investigate if anyone is interested in doing this - I guess here in the UK the number of owners is quite small hence the chance of a swop would be less. But certainly worth thinking about.

Now the other bit of info you've stated is that alot of oil does get to the top end via the reed pump (i'll explain in a minute where i'm going) - I guess this is reasonable understandable because this is where the gauze filter is sited hence you would need a good flow to ensure adequate oil filtering (rock catching).

Question: - The top end is fed from a pipe after this gauze filter - now does the crankshaft get fed from this same point - or is that another reed system?

OK - I'm happy that I can now use the bike for longer periods - but i'll tell you what I was planning.

The camshaft end on the drive side has a dowel pin hole which could be used as a convenient drive point. Now modify the gear drive cover so that a small oil pump (say g-rotor) can be bolted on and run from the camshaft - All easy stuff. Now take the pipe that currently feeds the cambox and reroute to this new pump - then out of the pump through a spin on small paper filter and then on to the cambox. So in short - you will have pulled oil from the sump - through a small pump which can force feed through a filter and then into the cambox as before. This should keep the oil cleaner for longer and doesn't require a large carve up of the bike. I need to understand the crankshaft oiling so I don't mess up the pressures in the engine - in case I prevent oil going to other places. It would also add a little volume as well which would be no bad thing for oil life.

Any thoughts?

Latsly I have noticed that 01/02 bikes had problem bigend bearings - are their any engine numbers that can tell me what mine has fitted.

Again thanks for all the info - great forum.

Laters

Adrian

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you might want to re-think your plan, factory tech from Italy explained the reed oil pump engine as useing the oil line on the cambox as a low pressure line used to suck oil from the cambox into the rocker bearings after the gears fed oil to the cambox. Later oil pumps were introduced and the same line with restricters installed in the bango bolt fittings at the cambox were used as a pressure line to feed the rockershaft bearings, which resualted in having to much oil in the cambox ,to aleviate this problem the hole near the cam drive gear in the head which oil returned to the lowend of the engine was machined larger to assist in returning the oil instead of pumping it out of the breather. The reed oil pump engines actually worked great as long as the oil level was kept about 2/3rds of the way up the crankshaft end as viewed from the oil filler hole.

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gd - arh good information. So you are saying that in reed engines the gears feed the cambox, then the low pressure (reed oil line) pulls some of the oil through the rockers. The rest falling back down the cam tunnel.

If I have understood this right - then how does the oil from the gears get into the cambox? - is there a drilling i've missed?. and the low pressure line is unlikey to pull oil from the cambox - more like it'll pull air.

I have to say i'm now confused - but am gonna have a look at my engine tonite as the top end is still off.

Get back to me with any more information on this as it would be good to clarify it.

Thanks

Adrian (the confused)

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The oil is carried up the cam gears and at the top of the cam gear well there is a slot milled into the outer circumferance in line with the cam gear the groove turns about 45 degrees and goes under the cam bearing into the cam well, I have found that the oil level in the cam box runs fairly high and on some engine's that had alot of blowby the head would actually fill with oil and blow it out the breather at high RPM, in later engine's they started milling the oil return path larger to facilitate in returning the oil back to the crank case. There is plenty of splash in the cam box for the large holes in top of the rockers to gather oil and then be sucked into the bearing surfaces (possibly the reason for such large holes in the top of the rocker arms, more area to catch oil).

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Thanks again gd - I noticed the oil splash cutouts in the rockers last night - didn't get a look at the head though.

So... I need a rethink!

alternatively I'll just keep it oiled and change every 15 hours.

Laters and thanks all

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