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mid valves removed

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I have found a few post about taking out the mid valve on showas. The general concensus seems to be that it is a poor move. I have 2004 crf250 that I removed the mid valves from, put in .47 springs and I believe the oil height is 375 cc (I have it written down but I cant remember exactly now) :thumbsup: and the valving is stock. anyway, I just got my '05 and have put a few hours on it with stock suspension and I feel it is broken in well now. Today I rode both forks back to back on my '05 and I feel the forks without the mid valves work much better. The new forks seemed to deflect to much, I believe this is due to the mid valve causing harshness. Even after adjusting the clickers for awhile I still felt it. For what its worth I think removing the mid valve is a worth while mod, combined with stiffer springs and oil height. does anyone else have any experience with this mod, good or bad ?

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I think it has allot to do with personal preference. I didn't like my suspension with the mid-valves removed, it blew through the stroke to easily. If all you do is remove the mid-valve, your basically just softening up your fork a tremendous amount, especially in the mid to high speed.

If you like it though go for it. You might just try removing one shim at a time from your mid-valve. This will slowly increase the float and soften the mid-valve at the same time, taking you gradually towards that check plate feel. :thumbsup:

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well i will agree that if you are play riding and or single track putting around on any of the mx stuff and have 15 psi in your wheels ,--yes these bikes will feel plusher and like they are better ,----but if you are a hard core charger and you rip up to your favorite 90' vert face tripple and slame the face you will slam the fork to the clanking bottem and loose drive and hurt yourself----not to mention what happens when you overjump somthing and land on the flat from 25' up ------i have seen guys go out and brake both wrists because a shop removed the mid valve and they flat landed------it just depends on if you are playing or realy charging and hitting stuff with speed and force -----!!! ------these bikes are good and can be made great its just in what level you ride at!

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I should have mentioned I race the Expert class. I dont race supercross but I have raced a few nationals and I do the regional arenacross's. In the past year I have begun to do my own suspension because Im sick of getting the run around by bigger shops and the know-it-all local shops messing up my stuff even worse. I have never seen a vertical face on any triple jump, especialy one on an AMA supercross track. All their triples are built the same each week, with a 75' distance. If you over jump something and land flat you are going to blow by the midvalve, so it probably wouldnt have helped save your wrist anyway. Stiffer single stage valving with stiffer springs is the only way to combat that problem. Maybe the forks you have seen without the midvalve did not have it replaced with a check plate, the shop could have been so stupid as to just take it out and not replace it with a standard check plate, I could see that causing a lot of problems.

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bottem line is you will have to run the mid valve if you want to widen the window of operation from face hits and flat landing to braking bumps and squair edge hits to g outs and have the best of both worlds------you cant run without it and have it both ways ------and yes every fork that gets the mid removed all go to ck plates it just the way it is done if you wanted to go back to 15 year old tech -------your fork now is like an 89 cr250 ------and thats where it will stay--------you have to go so stiff on the base valve it will be so harsh and it will still drive through on biger face hits and bottem so hard no matter what you think you will do with single stage valving and springs,--------just run the math on it you cant get there from here, science dosent lie and yes it will hurt you , i have seen it alot-----but some people have to find out the hard way-----good luck !!!

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I don't want to get into a pissing contest over the mid-valve arguement , but I have been re-valving / rebuilding forks for years and converting the mid to a check plate. I have a son that was pro at one time and still rides vet A occasionaly and he hasn't yet broken any wrists . I have several riders that I have done this mod on, and believe me, they are fast as any in the southeast.

I will admit I am now valving and leaving the mid-valve as is, but I never had any real issues doing it the other way either.

And by the way , about ninety five percent of my business is motocross / supercross customers.

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i dont want to get into a pissing contest either, we are all trying to get info and learn, ---and yes i did some of the first ck plates and found out real quick it was limitting the fork while working with top riders and doing lotts of testing ,--and found that you were doing a disservice by disableing the mid, me and paul thede would go round and round about this , he needs to keep it simple for marketing and making money hype.--- and the riders and myself found it harder to go as fast as long because of the way it had to be valved without the mid-----not to mention that there are not any top riders and or teams that do not have the mid working-----and you and everbody else will find the joy of having that circut funtion and widen the peramiters of how well a fork can operate ------and you will notice how well your joints can last --------i am the one that kept trying to get it to work and paul turned it into a ck plate for ease and 89 tech------so i am glade you are working with it ,----you will be amazed how fast you can go and the confidense you and your riders will have ----------and all my business is mx and super x and i stoped with the ck plate almost before it started , it is not the way to go ---- i know some people dont want to hear this, but its true ,and the mid valve cuts down on injury and lets you get away with more ------before you know it the ck plate will be a thing of the past ---thank god !

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I agree with kelstr, mid valves are the way to go for superior performance. Done them both ways, both can work for various riders and riding styles so no pissing contest required it just is preferance and what you are willing to learn and explore. Mid valve allows a far greater range but you really have to spend a huge amount of time testing and really know what you are doing and being scientific to get it working right. Since it has a great effect it is easy to get wrong and ruin the forks performance. Therefore for novice or lazy suspension tuners it is far easier to simply remove the mid valve and check plate it!

Kelstr I have seen and heard of having people having the same wrist injuries you are mentioning and also some nasty leg injuries by changing the base valves too, though that brand of valve also suggests replacing the mid valve with a check plate. However I had seen these injuries back when everything was check plate.

Also KYB seems to get the credit for the mid valve while it was Showa that initially used them (though very crudely in 1993? 1994 for sure forks) they just never called it anything. KYB came up with the term mid valve.

Hey while we are getting rid of the mid valve why not also remove the cartridge and retro fit damping rods!!! Hell they were plush and squishy! Very tunable with simply oil weight, spring rate, preload and oil height! Easy to adjust and work on too! Hell I got a heap of old brass rod laying around, Kelstr you know a machine shop and we can start making "GOLD RODS" when I get back!! LMAO :devil:

:thumbsup:

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yes we could make these rods and market them as 1960 hot rods to fill all your squishy needs -----we garentee no track feel at all ----- untill the rod blows through the top of the cap and hits you in the head. -------and the sad thing is people would want to buy them and have them installed---------.and boy you are correct with the injury with all the funny jewelry and kits that get installed----all those valves or "jewelry" i call them , cant hold a candel to a factory design piston from 1995------and yes i have seen very fast riders hurt,---and you get the stuff appart and they have the jewelry and a ck plate ------its sad ----------but the tracks and riders are getting more demanding and the jewelry sales are going away-------i have got buckets of all the goofey valves that i have removed and gone back to factory valves ----.

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Even though I don't like the check plate, it seems to me that the GV itself is basically as good as any other valve. They are all about the same except some flow a little more, and some a little less. So it's just a matter of proper shimming for whatever valve you have, and getting the mid-valve right, or at least close.

I think that the GV charts are good for beginners (like me), who don't fully comphrehend the effects of swapping shims around. It keeps us out of trouble.

Correct me if I'm wrong. :thumbsup:

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well the charts at least do help people see whats is involved-------but the gv it self if you run the numbers on it(or any of the other jewelry out there) flows only 66% of the flow of a factory valve on the averedge( some way less) and it only has three openings witch bind and dont lift the shims correctly and or evenly like the factory valves do and the brass wears off and leaks and does not seal as well, they also dont have a venturi built into it witch realy helps control pressure rise and the smoothness of how the shims are opened (take a close look at a factory valve and you will see that the jewerly cant perform even 1/2 the factory performance) and it is way heaver ------i mean they just are not the way to go-----not to mention that when you bypass the mid valve -----now you have realy down graded the suspension back to a 88 89 cr -----it is just a shame !! -------and i am so happy to see this stuff go away---because when i get some guys bike and he is feed up with the jewerly i play hell getting the factory stuff back and spend way to much money and time to just get back to the begining so that it can be corrected and tuned to work as designed ------and i am just one of 100 shops that feel this way ----i can garentee you that the works stuff and or any top pro rider out there with factory stuff worth his salt has all the factory valves working and inplace on his stuff-------i even get stuff with stickers on it that should have jewerly in it and they dont, they are all factory stuff -----that should tell you something !!

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Well this subject has been beat to death for years - some tuners believe midvalve should be removed others do not... I have had it both ways for the bikes I ride and on Yamaha's for "me and the way that I ride" the Midvalve is useless and is gone. I know Larry's work personally and he does a lot of very talented riders in the Southeast - (he is not my tuner)and his work is top notch. I am sure that your work is top notch as well - the removal of the midvalve for every tuner I have spoken with or worked with is a personal issue to the philosophy of their own specific tuning skills - To say one way or another is better or worse is a waste of breath - every rider riding abilities are different - keep an open mind. There is no right or wrong answer to this dilemma. :cry:

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