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Oil Messup

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Ok guys heres the deal. I have an 02 WR426 that takes oil in the frame up by the handlebars. My brother just bought a 03 WR250. I told him that I would check the oil and put some in if it needed it. So I check the dipstick on his(by the gastank) and it was low. So I put the oil in where the dipstick is. Feeling like a retard and looking down and seeing that their is an oil fill on the engine unlike mine I think I messed up. Now am I ok on this one or did I screw it up. I havent started the bike at all cause I just did it a few min ago. :cry:

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Ok my next question is, is there seperate oil resevoirs? One for the frame, and one for the crankcase? I see you have drain plugs for the frame, and crankcase. I am totally new to this and feel like such an ametur now. I guess my main question is will it matter if I poured oil in the frame oil check like a dumba#@?

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If you only put in a little oil, start the bike run it for 5 min, shut off, let sit for 5 min, check oil. But if you put in alot of oil (like over a 1/4 quart), you could blow a gasket.

The oil all goes to and comes from the same place. All resevoirs (sp) are connected. Putting oil in at the dipstick will eventually drain into the case.

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a 1/4 qt. too much wont do anything to it. the design is very forgiving.

the best way to resolve it, is to empty all the oil out and refill with the correct amount.

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"Ok my next question is, is there seperate oil resevoirs?"

A dry sump system like either the old or new YZFs stores oil in a tank (the Frame). A feed pump draws it down, pumps it out to the bearings, cams, trans (in the case of a Yamaha), etc. A Scavenge, or Return pump picks it up from the crankcase after it drains back there and sends it back to the tank.

The "retard" is the engineer who thought it was a good idea to put the oil fill on the crankcase so that when you do an oil change, you get to start your bike with a dry oil tank. :cry:

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4 strokes dont have fuel passing thru the crankcase washing the oil off. So there will always be a film of oil on the bearings and cylinder wall, so it doesnt dry start.

The oil drains pretty fast too. It has too or the crankcase would run out while running.

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4 strokes dont have fuel passing thru the crankcase washing the oil off. So there will always be a film of oil on the bearings and cylinder wall, so it doesnt dry start.

The oil drains pretty fast too. It has too or the crankcase would run out while running.

Tell you what, leave your bike sit for a week, then pull the cam cover. See if you think there's enough oil on the cams and lifters to make you comfortable about starting the engine and running it for 15 seconds without any extra. Oil runs off, fuel or not, given enough time. The issue is that, with the setup as is from the factory, the bike starts without oil after an oil change, and runs without oil pressure until enough has been returned to the tank for the feed pump to pick it up. If this sounds like something you want to simply overlook, go for it. But I know you've heard any number of people light off their YZF dead cold and immediately rip into the throttle. The cams in these engines reach speeds that the crankshafts in most cars aren't capable of, and they sit directly in the head. Besides that, the face of the cam lobe and valve lifter is one of the parts of any four stroke that places the greatest demands on the engine oil.

A little caution won't cost you anything, and your bike just might last a little longer, especially considering that more than 60% of the wear that takes place in most engines happens in the first 30 seconds of a cold start.

But, hey, ignore it if you want to.

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But, hey, ignore it if you want to.

so, like, how do you deal with this in your car or truck?

do you turn it upside down before starting it?

when you come back after being away for a week, what do you do before starting it?

jim aka the wrooster

'01 wr250f

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We are weekend warriors, so the bikes always sit for a week between running.

As luck would have it, I recently put 262 kits on both of our 04's. Based on your assumptions, that after 30 - 40 "dry starts" the bikes should have been severly worn. What I found was zero wear on the cam journals, and the crosshatch was still clearly defined in the cylinder.

Your concerns of the engine wearing to the point of being basically useless from starting them each week after sitting were not substantiated after a year of "dry starts".

However, I do agree some people need to learn how to let an engine warm up before racing off into the sunset. Never rev an engine until the oil pressure has built up.

On a side note the hotcams really added a boost to the kids bike. I put the ones that use the stock springs on his. Pretty soon I'll buy a head, and test out motomans porting to see if it makes a difference or not. Mine will get the higher lift cams, cause I need an edge over him :cry:

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I may be in a false sence of security, but this kind of has bothered me as well. Before I start my bike after sitting, I hold in the Kill switch and kick it over a dozen times or so. I would think this would spread a bit of oil all over the major components. Am I wrong and just waisting my time?

Shane

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well your pretty much wasting your time because the oil pump itself has enough leakage that it doesnt build pressure at kicking speed. It needs to be spinning faster than you can kick it to build any kind of pressure. Your best bet is to simply start the bike, and run it at a constant rpm for 30 secs to a minute.

Revving the engine before the oil pressure has built up can wipe the oil film off and cause metal to metal contact.

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"so, like, how do you deal with this in your car or truck?

do you turn it upside down before starting it?"

No, dear fellow, I prefill the oil filters. Anyway, I don't own a car with a dry sump system, and if I did, I sincerely doubt it would have its oil fill located anywhere besides the oil tank. The oil in my car (and yours, I'll bet) goes right where the feed pump is, and in most cars, will actually partially submerge the oil pump. Even so, I watch the oil pressure guage and don't run it above an idle until the needle moves.

"Your concerns of the engine wearing to the point of being basically useless from starting them each week after sitting were not substantiated after a year of "dry starts"."

Odd, I don't recall mentioning anything of the sort.

When your bike simply sits for a week, or longer, there will still be oil in the tank, and thus in the feed side of the oil pump. It is possible to have a bike sit so long that almost all of the oil runs to the crankcase, or have the low pressure check valve leak and allow the tank to drain earlier than that, so you should always ease up on it when first starting after an extended period of non-use.

What I said about dry starts and the condition the engine is in after it sits a while was not in reference to simply starting a bike that has been idle, which you will see if you review it. I was speaking of the condition the bike is in after an oil change. In that situation, you have an engine that has to wait for the return pump to run oil back to the tank, then run down the tank to where the feed line is located, then it has to fill the space created by changing the filter, and then it gets to oil itself. Why complicate that by doing this to an engine that hasn't had oil pumped through it in a week?

These are the "dry starts" I was talking about, and I really rather doubt you changed your oil 30-40 times last year. If you did, hey, you're exceptionally fastidious, and I stand corrected.

You will note, as Wrooster himself has pointed out at least once before, that the routine of running the engine prior to an oil change is called for in the owner service manual, and on http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil_change.htm . There's a reason for that, especially when you're talking about an '03 or later YZF.

Here's something you can try at home. Next weekend, before you first start your bike, loosen the oil line banjo bolt at the top end, where it bolts the line to the head, and back it off to thepoint where it's just less than snug against the fittng. Start the bike and watch how long it takes for oil to run out at the fitting. A little delay, maybe, but not much.

Then, do the same thing after a normal oil change, and see the difference.

Of course the bikes can live through these short intervals without oil pressure; they do it all the time. But it's still a condition that invites damage, and I'd be willing to bet that at least one of the several threads I've seen on TT about wiped out cam saddles in the cylinder head happened on a cold start.

"Your best bet is to simply start the bike, and run it at a constant rpm for 30 secs to a minute. Revving the engine before the oil pressure has built up can wipe the oil film off and cause metal to metal contact."

Yeah, that's what I said. Especially after 10 seconds with no new oil.

Again, it's just my advice, based on 35 years of professional technical experience. It costs nothing to be a little more careful, and, like I said, you can take it or leave it.

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for some reason I assumed you meant the bike was dry starting because of this...

Tell you what, leave your bike sit for a week, then pull the cam cover. See if you think there's enough oil on the cams and lifters to make you comfortable about starting the engine and running it for 15 seconds without any extra. Oil runs off, fuel or not

Let me use your words then. :cry:

The point I was making that after sitting for a week the bike is in even more of the condition of having the oil run off as you put it, than it is after just changing the oil. A week vs. 10 minutes of having the oil run off. The oil goes to the same place in both situations, the crankcase.

The wear was immeasurable after a year of starting the bike every week after letting the oil run off. the risk of wear just isnt as bad as you may think.

But hey, soon as you find a way to pre oil the bikes before starting them, then absolutely post it. It would be a great tip for everyone.

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The key words in the quote were "without any extra".

The original point was, and is, that because of the location of the oil fill, the '03 and later YZ has to run an additional 8-15 seconds with no oil pressure, and no new oil delivered to the top end AFTER AN OIL CHANGE, not when simply started after sitting for any length of time.

The 99% of the oil that drains back once the engine is shut off isn't the issue either. It is the degradation of the oil film that remains on the cams, followers, etc. Running an engine prior to changing the oil refreshes this film, and gives it a little extra to get past the period of opereation without oil pressure that will occur AFTER AN OIL CHANGE.

I'm sorry if you still don't get it, but I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

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I see by the fact that you have resorted to name calling that your argument has collapsed, and that you are taking this far too personally.

I don't know why, but I thought that you might see being more or less forced to run an engine without oil pressure, even briefly would be less than ideal, and appreciate the fact that the situation can be mitigated by a few simple, not even inconvenient precautions. But, maybe not. I'm awfully sorry. Feel free to have the last word.

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My argument hasnt collapsed, just bored watching you chase your tail. Here this may help you catch it.

you say to run the bike before changing the oil so the oil is pumped around covering the bearings and such. That way it minimizes the risk of wear running with low oil pressure after changing it. The reason for the low oil pressure is because there is no oil in the frame to feed the pump with.

good plausible thinking, except for one detail you fail to recognize. :cry:

Theres no oil in the frame after a couple of days anyhow. It's all drained into the crankcase just like when you refill the bike. The very thing you are trying to avoid by running the bike before changing the oil happens as soon as you start it.

If you ever manage to catch your tail, post the pics :cry:

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Doesn't matter who is "technically" correct here because it is "fundamentally" correct to use precautionary measures whenever possible. Besides warm oil drains better so there is no reason to change the oil cold in the first place.

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