The Valve Issue

[Loopole]

spoke to my honda dealer tonight at length about the valve issue.... He has sold around 100 crfs, 450/250s since the crf450s came out, he says he has not had one valve issue with any of these bikes. He also commented that many of the hi performance street bikes have the same type of titanium valves, that run very high rpms, and they do not have the claimed problems. He also noted that he has talked with several dealers in metropolitan areas who say "they are tearing their hair out" over these valve problems. He acknowledges the problem exists and his only explanation of why he hasnt had any problems and others have is the fuel, and the effect the additives in metropolitan areas may have vs. rural areas, there is a cause, what is it? He currently rides a 250x, and says he has at least 2500 single track miles on it, which I believe because he rides almost every weekend, i know because its a small town, he just checked the valves and they are in spec. He also mentioned that he rode his crf450 for two years, never had to adjust the valves, which he was surprised at since he said he had unintentionally dusted the engine. I will be checking my valves in the next day and will report back, my x has 750 miles/33 hours running time, dual sported, with 30% at highway speeds of 50-60 mph, the balance being trail riding, i run chevron 92, three changes of gn4, and 1 change of delo 400, at around 100 miles after my delo 400 oil change my oil consumption dropped considerably. Before the delo 400 i was buring around 75-100 ml of oil per 100 miles, it appears to have almost stopped since then, no smoking at startup....., dont know if its the oil, or the rings finally seated, i am going to run another batch of gn4, if its starts burning oil again i will go back to the delo 400. Must be one of several things, fuel, dust infiltration, manufacturing problems, leaking throttle shaft, leaking air boot, titanium valves and pushing the envelope...?, Final note, dont kill the messenger!!!!

[DavesCRF250L]

Thats not what my dealer said. He said it is a problem and he has one 250 that Honda covered doing two valve jobs, he said they keep going to zero, he tells the Honda rep about the problem but he is not sure if they are hearing him ?. Mine is ok but one thing I would look at is I hear people at the track saying I rode my cr250 for three years and never did a thing to it. I believe them by the looks of the bike. That and Hondas crap valves togeather could cause an issue. Also if you ride on the pipe the whole time like a two stroke maybe the four stroke cant handle it.

I SAY KEEP BITCHING SO THEY RESOLVE THIS PROBLEM OR MY NEXT BIKE WILL BE BLUE.

[TexLaBo]

I think come '06, yamaha is going to sell every aluminum framed YZ250F they can make. I have the RMZ, and like the Hondas, it has valve problems too. I'm convinced there are a lot of people in denial because they really want to love their $5,000 bikes. But, when it surfaces that the '05s are still having the valve issues all the '04s had, everyone that loves the light weight and great power the baby Fs make will start looking for a reliable package with all the same attributes... and they'll all be looking at the blue bikes (..I already am).

My stainless steel valves and springs arrive tomorrow, and that will finally fix my valve issue so I can get through '05. But, unless there's a MAJOR change in the yellow/green/red bikes by '06, I'm going to be getting the YZF and I have to think a lot of other disgruntled CRF/RMZ/KXF owners will be thinking the same way. I know a lot of guys still riding their '01 YZ250Fs with the original valves and springs in em.

~Tex

RMZ+ssv

[vtec]

I have well over 300 hours on my '02 crf450 with no problems and i hope not to have any valve issues on my '05 crf250r.

I used to have a 1998 yz400 and the motor was awsome! I just didn't get along with the chassis or the suspension. If the new aluminum framed yz handles better ( for my taste anyway ) and carry there weight lower and i have valve problems with my crf250 you can bet i will be riding blue in the future ?

[novaman64]

My stainless steel valves and springs arrive tomorrow, and that will finally fix my valve issue so I can get through '05.

Who is making SS valves for you bike?

[TexLaBo]

vtec... it's way less common on the 450Fs. I was speaking mostly of the 250Fs. We turn way more rpms... hence, way more valve problems.

As for the SS valves & springs... I had Ferrea make me a set. Dig this... $35.00 per valve!!! Then the springs I'm getting from WMR ( www.wmr1.com ). They've come out with a new conical valve spring that could be a huge developement in 250F valve control. It's the same style spring they used to break the 15k rpm barrier in F1 cars. If you go to the RMZ forum, and look under my "Valve Fix" post, the guy from WMR explains it in detail. It's pretty fascinating and I'm looking forward to getting mine put back together to try it out. They will also be selling these springs for the CRFs too. ?

~Tex

RMZ+ssv

[skipn8r]

My partner races a 10,000 rpm, 352 ci Mustang and he has nothing but good things to say about Ferrea valves ?. $35 each = Bargain!!

[vtec]

hey tex! I am new to the 250's and hadn't spent much time in the 250 forum untill recently and was really caught off guard and unaware of the valve issue. I really hope that because i am a woods rider and not a racer that my valves won't be that big of an issue but if they do become an issue for me i am glad we have guys like you to give us info on alternatives to just putting in new valves or buying a blue bike.

Please keep us informed on the ferra valves and the wmr springs and how they work in your bike! ?

[E-Ticket]

Great thread... encouraging news! ?

Do you know what the thread title is in the other forum? Thanks! - rb

[Throttlejockey]

Interesting thread.

Valve Fix

[maurpra]

Yes, interesting technical tips from WMR1 and could be helpfull to fix.

But just one question: I can't understand how, Honda who is building F1 engines since long time as well as moto GP engine, couldn't have considered this resonance problem in CRF engines. I could understand for firt 450 release but now repeating the error over 250 knowing that max RPM where even more than 450, looks to me very weird!

And I don't think that this is just due to cost/production tradeoff! They know that they have a problem here, especially with the Yam. in the play field. It would have been easy for them to mount different springs setup to fix, wouldn't be?

[Jimbo45]

Loopole, very interesting. Have you done any checking as to how the fuels may differ? Maybe it has something to do with LEAD content!? I am pretty sure gasoline isn't allowed to have lead in it anymore, but who knows? I recall my Dad saying that back in the day, certain (maybe the high performance ones)cars had to use leaded gas or risk burning up / damaging the valves and valve seats?! Interesting correlation here, isn't it!? I think you can still buy lead additive to add to your fuel. It would be interesting to run it through my new one for the first year or so, and compare the results to a regular fuel user with an '05. I will have to research the health/environmental aspects first, though. ?

[novaman64]

The reason old cars have to use lead additive or leaded gas is because they didnt have hardened valve seats back then so the lead served as a cushion.

You can still buy leaded gas from the pump allthough it is very difficult to find here in CA its called Cam2 and it is 110 octane however law states you cant pump it directly into your car so I fill up gas gans then poor it into my car while still at the pump. ?

As far as it having something to do with valve issues I dont think so. I have been runnign leaded 110 mixed 50/50 with premium and have a valve problem. My friends that have the same bike run straight 91 same 91 I use and they have no probs......

[krony506]

I have a question. Will the stainless valves slow down the motor with there heavier weight?

[WMR]

The rule is if you increase the weight of the valve you are increasing the effective valve mass, that's the weight or mass that is being moved during the valves opening phase. If you add weight to the effective mass you will hurt engine performance. If you can lower the weight of other components in the system, bringing the effective mass back down to the stock weight, the motor should perform the same as stock. The real trick is to lower the effective valve mass to less than stock, that's when you will see improvments in the motors performance. At WMR we have developed a Conical Valve spring that does just that, it is 32% lighter than a stock spring but delivers the same operating presures. With lighter retainers and WMR Conical Springs you can effectivly cancel out the extra weight from a stainless valve, and get very close to the stock numbers. We currently have Stainless Steel valves, Titanium Valves and Conical Springs available for the KX250F/RMZ250. We are still in the testing phase with the CRF250 but should be ready to realease the Honda springs in a few weeks. WMR will be offering Conical Valve Springs for all brands of four stroke dirt bikes, Check out www.wmr1.com -Tech Tips to learn more about our Conical valve Springs and for info on their realease.

[vtec]

Great to see someone doing what honda should have, I'll be watching things with my eyes wide open so i can fix the pesky valve problem correctly when the time comes ?

[TexLaBo]

Yeah Guys... I got my parts in today, and I've started putting everything back together with the WMR springs with Ferrera Stainless valves (..I know WMR has SS available, but I actually ordered these a week before the springs were available just trying to get ahead of the game). If I can find my shims locally, I'll be sure to have a ride report for everyone saturday night.

I'm as excited as anyone about this being a possible fix, so I'll pass along anything I find out! ?

~Tex

RMZ w/SS Valves!!!

[QueTex450]

Have a very good standing offer for my sons 03yz250f and was thinking about buying him a honda, thanks for helping me decide not guys.

?