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ya, i kinda figured you had to be road worthy. oh ,well. :cry:

Michigan is very liberal in thier requirements. Hi-Lo beam, horn (can be squeeze type if you want), working break light, road nobs, review mirror.

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road nobs

however, no one actually uses DOT tires. i ride D756's both ends.

ps to ncmountainman, everything you ever wanted to know is in the "intro" section of my writeups -- cut-n-paste link in my sig below and follow the links within the 2004 writeup to the 2003 and 2002 versions. all the details you need on bike setup are in the first sections of the three writeups.

jim aka the wrooster

'01 wr250f

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well problem being is that i'm liscencly handicapped for some time to come!! :cry:

that hasn't stopped some people at SDM ... BUT ... if you get pulled over by the MI SP on one of the road connecting sections you will have to walk home (which could be >50 miles)!!! :cry:

so we just have to ask, why no DL?

jim aka the wrooster

'01 wr250f

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i ran down the last feller who sold me snakeoil additive :cry: no, there was a period of strife in my life a few years back and i drank alot and drove alot. ended up with 3 dui's and got the habitual offender label slapped on my ass. i won't be legal for some time maybe never.. and if i get cought drivin' its do not pass go,do not collect $200. :cry: my own fault :cry:

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WHEELSUP I HAVE ADDRESSED ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS MORE THAN ONCE.

I will address them directly to you.

Two2cool helps keep an oils viscosity stable. 75% of its makeup is a high quality carrier(oil). An oils viscosity lowers as temps rises. When oils get as hot is does in many motocross/woods bikes it lowers dramatically. How fast it does this and how much it lowers depends on the type of oil you are using and how much heat you are actually making. Oil treated with two2cool doesnt get as hot or get hot as fast so it helps keep the viscosity more stable.

Oil treated with two2cool helps with lubrication. Understanding that oil is being repelled from engine heat(hasnt been disputed here) when treated with two2cool its attracted to engine heat. This helps keep oil where it needs to be. Every gear to gear contact, the clutch, or any friction causing part of your engine naturally repells oil. When using two2cool it helps keep more oil in on,around and between these parts. Also it helps with shear and helps to make an oils additives last longer.

You asked about clutch performance and mentioned that I never addressed wet clutch applications. This is unture. Many of my posts have addressed it.

TWO2COOL WAS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR WET CLUTCH APPLICATIONS.There are no added friction modifiers and friction reducers. There are many reasons wet clutches make extreme heat and sometimes premeturally fail.

The centrifigal forces are naturally slinging the oil out and away from the clutch. If you spin it fast enough and long enough it will run dry even withount even being used. Since while using the clutch it makes alot of heat it repells the oil from it also. The hotter it gets the thinner the oil gets and the faster the oil leaves the clutch. If the temps get high enough it fizzles the oil and creates a vapor barrier between the clutch and the oil itself. Then the clutch will run totally dry and bluse plates causing slippage along with extreme heat or the clutch to fail. we along with many engine builders have whitnedd clutch temps exceeding 600f. Take a piece of metal and heat it to 600f and place it in some of your favorite oil.

This happens at lower rpms and at lower temps but obviously at a lower rate. If grandma is riding her big bore stroker 525 to the mail box and back I dont think any of this would be a concern.

You mentioned you do alot of 1st gear crawling and I never adressed that. this is UNTRUE also. I mentioned tight woods sections more than once.

Woods riders can benifit alot by using two2cool. Especially while riding tight hilly conditions and where as YOU mentioned you arent getting the cooling you need. Since tight woods sections or 1st gear crawling will be making lots of oil temps by cooling them you will also lower coolant temps. How much so depends on More of bike and riding style/conditions the most. We usually see about 1/3 coolant drop as we do oil temps drop. More for certain models. Less for others. A big factor is water pump design and location.

You mentioned the only way for my product to work is through significant friction reduction. This is true in some sense. As I have stated their is no friction reducers,modifiers in our product. It works exceptionally well in wet clutch applications. By making your choice of high quality engine stay where it should it reduces friction. in no other way does it reduce friction.

You state that yourself along with most people in this thread are trail riders. I knew this. When I refer to hardcore racing is because in this scene they are the hardest on bikes and see the most wear. Kind of different than I guess you took it.

I appreciate your questions and if I have missed any of them I appoligize.

Atleast they were some usefull and understandable questions. Not like the following ones i recieved earlier.

1. Why is the guage mounted in the sight of the rider?

2.Why is the thermocouple bathed in oil? Honestly does anyone know of a better place to check oil temps than from the oil itself?

4.Why only one thermocouple? Which had been stated multiple times that not only do we check oil temps from multiple locations but water temps from multiple locations at the sime time.

9. Why only one lap not 8 like before? Doesnt eveyone thing that a product working in 1 laps rather than 8 is a good thing? also it keeps working till its removed.

10. Did you measure coolant temps? Which has been addressed, stated, readressed.

Thanks Norman

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The wont bite comment didnt in any way mean that I would send someone a free bottle. I give free samples out all the time. Thats an easy one. But what I meant wasnt even close to giving a free bottle.

What you guys dont realize just because you havent heard about two2cool doesnt mean prople arent using it or have the need for it.

When I first started offering info I immediately directed members to do a search and have a look at repeat customers. On KTMTALK there are hundreds of threads. Some in the beginning just like this one.

I had many engineers and some members be very sceptical. Sceptisism especially with oil additive and are understandable and EXPECTED. I have no problem with them at all.

Its only when someone immediately starts bashing my product. Go back and read the first few posts. Sceptisism I fully understand. No one has proven to me we actually visited the moon.

I have had other sceptics that give me hell. Some were just as hard on me as the guys in this thread. I have had more than one person and more than one engine builder appoligoze later. Then they tested my products. Not one of them that has done extensive testing isnt using or selling two2cool. We are not talking about three people here.

The only people who have tried two2cool and wasnt impressed want making lots of oil temps to begin with. or was like the one parts manager who rode his 450 for a few laps stopped checked the oil temp and it was less than 200f. then added two2cool and rode some more then checked it again and it read around 220. Then he called me and laughed. Go figure

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I wonder how it does on the hold the screwdrivere test.

On another site an engineer used this as his first test.

His second test was to take two containers of maxima MTL and treat one of the with two2cool. Then he heated an old screwdriver red hot and placed in in the oil without two2cool. it fixxed the oil for many seconds. Then he heated the screwdriver again and placed it in the oil treated with two2cool.

Then I recieved a phone call and he was like you know what?

Since then he has done many tests.

The above test would be easily varified. By doing a search.

One more thing I am not a KTM guy. We decided to get a 450sx just to do some testing on that specific model.

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Anyone who interested in what oil temps they are actually getting please contact me.

Especially someone who rides tight technical sections alot. Not to try two2cool but just to know how hot your oil temps are actually getting. I also have coolant temp setups.

I have lots of guages laying around. I believe all late model YZ/Wr's are a models that a sender can be added to the drain plug. I just had one I removed out of a new YZF450 4 wheeler we were doing testing on.

I have loaned out guages many times for customers to see their actual temps.

Now a hand held temp gun is accurate(we use them also). But no where near as accurate as seeing the temp taken directly from the oil itself.

We are also working on a dual guage that will tell coolant and oil temp and have mounts for all the popular models.

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1. Why is the guage mounted in the sight of the rider?

it's not my fault you don't understand the concept of blind testing. if i'm the rider and i know the temperature and the desired end result (e.g., "i need it to be hot this lap") i can slip the clutch or otherwise ride such that oil temperature is increased. subsequently, when i need cooler oil i can modify my riding style to suit. it's that easy. to do this right the rider needs to be "double blind" -- unaware which oil type is in the bike and unaware of the realtime measurements. this is simple stuff to do, but it's easily screwed up to get whatever results your marketing department wants to hear. i suggested before, and i'll do so again, that you find someone who actually knows how to do testing and get yourself a half day on a dyno. once that is complete then you can assert that you have good data. right now you have a bad methodology with no control and out of that can only come bad data. same test principles apply for you, NASA, whoever.

2.Why is the thermocouple bathed in oil? Honestly does anyone know of a better place to check oil temps than from the oil itself?

bzzzzt. scroll back ace. i asked "where is the thermocouple bathed in oil?", not why.

item 3? counting problems in addition to reading comprehension issues?

4.Why only one thermocouple? Which had been stated multiple times that not only do we check oil temps from multiple locations but water temps from multiple locations at the sime time.

not prior to when i asked. read the first page of this thread.

(oh, i see now, you are not enumerating these items for my benefit.)

9. Why only one lap not 8 like before? Doesnt eveyone thing that a product working in 1 laps rather than 8 is a good thing? also it keeps working till its removed.

you don't know how to run a test. go back to one of my first posts and read up on the scientific method. it's how you do things correctly to seperate out correlation and causation, experimental error, system error, and so on. again, you need control and repeatability.

10. Did you measure coolant temps? Which has been addressed, stated, readressed.

after i asked.

since you seem to be willing to answer more questions, here are some for you.

you stated

We break something on one of our bikes every day.

so, while your product reportedly "dramatically lowers oil temps" it decreases reliability? how do you explain this problem? why would i want lower oil temps if it decreases reliability? i have good reliablity using a high quality synthetic oil -- as do many others here on TT. why would i want to downgrade just for reportedly lower oil temps?

Understanding that oil is being repelled from engine heat(hasnt been disputed here) when treated with two2cool its attracted to engine heat.

first, could you explain how "oil is repelled from engine heat"? then, could you elaborate on the chemical or physical mechanism that purportedly "attracts two2cool to heat"? feel free to get as technical as you want.

It really doesnt cool your oil but keeps the heat from being made in the first place.

there are three sources of heat in the engine: 1) the compression process (PVT; boyles law), 2) the combustion process (fuel+oxygen+spark=exothermic reaction), and 3) friction due to sliding or rolling surface-to-surface contact. you can't change the first two items, so your product apparently reduces friction. how does this *not* contribute to clutch slippage?

Whether two2cool does what we say it does can be proven in an easy way. Which I am sure wont be good enough for you.

I will wait for someone to ask me to do so.

ok, i'll bite... how can the performance of two2cool be proven in an easy way?

jim aka the wrooster

'01 wr250f

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RC876

Understanding that oil is being repelled from engine heat(hasnt been disputed here) when treated with two2cool its attracted to engine heat.

first, could you explain how "oil is repelled from engine heat"? then, could you elaborate on the chemical or physical mechanism that purportedly "attracts two2cool to heat"? feel free to get as technical as you want.

First, I am neither disputing anything Wrooster has said so far, nor am I defending the product in question. I don't think, from my observations over the years, that oil is particularly repelled by heat until it gets to the point that it boils off a surface on contact. I also do not know for certain that oil is not attracted to heat, but I can say that castor based lubricants are much more attracted to heat than mineral oils. I have placed a steel plate at a 45 degree angle in a container of oil so that the only bottom 20% was immersed. Then, we heated the plate with a torch at a point 3/4 of the way up, out of the oil. Castrol R and an old two-stroke castor called Blendzall would climb the plate toward the hot spot. The effect was like what happens with fluxed brazing rod, which has to do with a kind of capillary attraction. None of the four mineral oils we tried this with would do the same thing, although machinist's cutting oil did. So, I have seen that this is possible, but outside of the claims made for 22cool, I know of no way to make mineral or synthetic mineral oils do this. The benefit to lubrication of hot parts is obvious enough, though, IF it can be acheived. But, is that what RC is talking about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC876

It really doesnt cool your oil but keeps the heat from being made in the first place.

there are three sources of heat in the engine: 1) the compression process (PVT; boyles law), 2) the combustion process (fuel+oxygen+spark=exothermic reaction), and 3) friction due to sliding or rolling surface-to-surface contact. you can't change the first two items, so your product apparently reduces friction. how does this *not* contrinute to clutch slippage?
I agree with Wrooster totally. but there is one other function the oil could serve in this regard, and that is to act as a coolant. Oil, however, is really a rather poor coolant, in that it neither absorbs or transfers heat very well compared with other fluids. Even if it was acting to cool the heat affected parts, say a clutch, it brings up the question I asked earlier, "where does the heat go?" The contention is that 22cool will lower oil temps. If you follow the rationale of the proponents as so far offered, the role of engine oil as a coolant seems to be the way they want us to look. But there's that question again. If the oil is a coolant, it gets hot because it absorbs heat from hot things. Then, where does the oil off-load this heat? There's no radiator in the system, so the only places available are the interior surfaces of a hot engine, and with a dry sump like the YZ, the frame. None of these are going to be very good at drawing heat out of the oil. So, I remain doubtful.

Besides, I want to see a full oil analysis done on unused oil after treatment to compare with the same oils' specs pretreated.

Cigarettes have been found to help prevent Alzheimer's Disease. But just because something solves a problem doesn't mean it's a good idea.

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I humbly submit that we should push for better test definition by 22C. There is nothing inherently wrong with the A/B successive performance comparison method for evaluation. It is interesting that he has established a rather large customer base for his product. It is possible that he may not know exactly how and/or why it works, but as it is his product, he is certainly under no obligation to provide either the chemical composition or a justification of its existence.

We are consumers, and in that role, we are all product testers. So if the explanation that he is providing is inadequate to develop a comfort level great enough to test his product for youself, don't do it.

I don't understand the need to try to extract what is obviously his intellectual property in order to call off the attacks on his credibility. The rest of the motorcycle industry doesn't seem to be held to that high standard.

I spoke with the owners of Crower Power (my neighbors and suppliers of high performance cams for MX as well as NASCAR, etc) about it general terms and they suggested that oils like Redline, for which they are a dealer, has similar stated properties. The folks at Rekluse suggest that Chevron Delo oils run significantly cooler. I have tried Delo and it indeed seems to run much cooler that the pure synthetic that I was using. I don't know why...Most likely 22C works to some degree or we would have a number of, "I tried it and it didn't do a damn thing," posts. I haven't seen one. He does have a fairly large body of anecdotal evidence. I will sit back and let the number of testers out there build a large enough data set before I pour it into my bike. When I do, I'll probably have a data acquisition system installed to record the comparative results.

RH (Owner of a developmental engineering firm)

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maybe its just polyo ester or some simple ingredient and he doesn't want to give it away or everyone would buy it by the gallon ! how much would it cost to do a chemical analysis on the 22C itself ? then we'd know what made it tick. anyone out there have any idea as to where when and how much$ ? i'll buy the 22C :cry: enquiring minds want to know,even myself who uses the stuff and have seen it work am starting to have doubts the way old norm dodges bullets like wonder woman,smells kinda funny. :cry:

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Redline oil claims to be attracted to metal parts.

Check out the website at www.redlineoil.com

I forgot to mention the fact that I conducted the hot metal test a very long while ago. Castor is and was still castor, but synthetics have changed tremendously in the time since then. There may be a great many more that would behave that way now.

But that would mean 22cool didn't make a difference in that regard. Wouldn''t it?

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Cigarettes have been found to help prevent Alzheimer's Disease. But just because something solves a problem doesn't mean it's a good idea.

From the British Medical Journal:

Smoking does not protect against dementia or Alzheimer's disease

Smoking and dementia in male British doctors: prospective study

Smoking does not protect against dementia or Alzheimer's disease, shows a study in this week's BMJ, contradicting the implications of some previous research.

Doll, Peto, and colleagues, from the Clinical Trial Service Unit and Epidemiological Studies Unit, Radcliffe Infirmary Oxford, report on observations of over 34,000 male UK doctors whose smoking habits have been reviewed every six to 12 years since 1951, to determine the impact on their health. They also reviewed the published data on the associations between smoking and Alzheimer's disease.

Over 24,000 of the doctors had died by the end of 1998. Dementia was mentioned on the death certificates of 483. Among 473 whose smoking habits were recorded at least 10 years before their death, when they would not have been influenced by the start of the disease, the prevalence of both Alzheimer's disease (the predominant cause) and of other dementias was similar in both smokers and non-smokers. If anything, persistent smoking may increase rather than decrease the age specific onset rate of dementia, conclude the authors.

The previous suggestions that smoking might be protective, say the authors, came from studies that were flawed because they were too small, or had relied on information about smoking habits from people other than the sufferers themselves.

Carol Brayne from the Institute of Public Health, Cambridge, writes in an accompanying editorial that a protective effect for nicotine is biologically plausible. This is because of the boosting effect of the drug on neurotransmitter systems in the brain, which are damaged in Alzheimer's disease, she says. But adds that these effects are likely to be short-lived. In the long term, smoking increases the risk of vascular dementia, because it increases the risk of vascular disease in general. "The public health message is clear: at the population level there is no protective effect of smoking in dementia."

Sorry, I couldn't resist in the

spirit of this long, long, long thread that will not die!

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From the British Medical Journal:

Smoking does not protect against dementia or Alzheimer's disease

The point was the smoking causes death prior to the onset of these conditions, thereby, allowing the patient to avoid them.

One could also say that riding a gixxer prevents dementia and Alzheimer's :cry:

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i've maybe figured out what 22C is!! ZDDP or zinc dialkyldithiophosphate or FZDDP the partially flourinated version of the above. in a hydroclear RTM base(hydrocracked mineral oil). ZDDP is only allowed in motor oils up to .1 % (because of the phosphorous content) mobil 1 has .12 % i wonder if thats why the changes on the shelfs? but anyway after researching this stuff it sounds exactly like what 22C is. 22C highly resembles mineral oil in texture and smell. if thats what it is the only bad by-product is acetic acid. i'm runnin' outa brain cells! the full report can be seen at U.S. patent application 20030139300 :cry: ahh,upon more research i find that acetic acid is basically vinegar. but in its pure form can be highly corrosive. hmmm.... of course this is all just conjecture because norm won't tell us :cry:

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upon more research i find that acetic acid is basically vinegar. but in its pure form can be highly corrosive. hmmm.... of course this is all just conjecture because norm won't tell us :cry:
It's the other way 'round, technically; vinegars are basically acetic acid solutions. And it's true they are corrosive. Enough so that folks like railroad modelers who work with painting small metal parts use white vinegar as a "pickling" solution to etch the metals for paint prep.

Since most good oils contain additives to counter acid buildup, that may not be an issue in small concentrations.

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