Anti-seize compound and torque

[mgarr682]

When using anti-seize compound should one increase the recommended torque settings? Or, does the anti-seize compound not have any effect on that?

[Erik Marquez]

Not enough information.. What fastener are you referring to?

Tq charts are usually denoted if the fastener is to be installed wet or dry.. If wet,, they mean oil... No real idea what or who anti seize will change the coefficient of friction ,,, but it should be somewhat close to oil.

[mgarr682]

Referring to any fasteners. Right now I'm getting ready to replace my skid plate. When I had it off a couple of weeks ago to change the oil two of the bolts were rusted so badly I had to grind them off to remove the plate. I've got a new plate now and plan to use the anti-seize compound on those bolts. Also, when I changed my oil filter a couple of weeks ago I saw the beginnings of corrosion on the aluminium threads there so I was considering using some anti-seize there too. Seat bolts, rust on those threads the last time I had the seat off, etc.

Just wondering, those fasteners that call for a specific torque, should the torque be increased if using anti-seize compound or not?

[crashbain]

My experience is that anti-sieze doesn't affect the torque applied enough to make a real difference - especially for chassis parts. I wouldn't recommend using anti-seize in the engine unless the manual specifically calls for it (haven't seen it in the Suzuki manuals to date). However, you typically don't see the kind of corrosion you're trying to avoid in the engine (case cover bolts are sometimes an exception, and you should be fine w/ anit-seize on those if you like).

Perhaps bronco has a different opinion, but this has worked for me over the years...

[MutualBill]

I would use anti-seize on any bolt the screws into aluminum and is exposed to outside elements. When aluminum is left exposed to nature it tends to corrode (white powder oxidization) and will bond to other metals. Antisize will prevent the bond.

As for torque...I generally use the same rating wet or dry.

[10guy]

I don't think I would increase the torque on any fastener that has a torque rating regardless if it is wet or dry.

[miken]

As for torque...I generally use the same rating wet or dry.

? Ahhh, don't say that....bad idea. I've broken a few bolts trying to torque dry to a wet rating. Plus, dry bolts sometimes bind up and you think they're torqued but they're not. After a few warm up cycles they fall out.

Mike - ?

[flux_capacitor]

? Ahhh, don't say that....bad idea. I've broken a few bolts trying to torque dry to a wet rating. Plus, dry bolts sometimes bind up and you think they're torqued but they're not. After a few warm up cycles they fall out.

Mike - ?

What is a good anti seize? I'm about to put on my skidplate tonight actually and was wonderring what to use. Dumb question I'm sure for you gearheads out there.

[sndmn2]

Locktite now makes there products in a aplicater silmlar to a tube of chapstick. Picked up a tube of anti sieze and blue just recently. No more mess.

[crashbain]

Cool tip, sndmn2 - I've still got a tube of that Permatex anti-seize and that stuff gets all over everything when I use it. Thanks! ?

[Noble]

This question could result in a very long and detailed technical discussion on torque. The correct answer is torque values must be given with regard to the type of thread lubricant. Reality is that is rarely the case. Tension produced in a fastener per applied torque changes dramatically depending on lubricant used. There are a lot of different kinds of antiseize compounds. Most will provide increased lubricity over light oil. Do not increase torque if you use antiseize. In most cases torque should be decreased but there is too much unknown information to give a positive answer. The makers of antiseize compounds say to determine correct torque by testing with their product. Thread surface finish and corrosion greatly affect applied tension for a given torque also.

[NateTheGreat]

I just use a bit of grease on some of the chassis bolts going into aluminum to prevent corrosion and keep water and dirt out as MutualBill mentioned. Such as those on the triple clamps.

I think a more important issue isn't what you use as an antisieze or worrying about the torque ratings wet or dry......

But what you use for a torque wrench.....

Beware of the cheapo, made in china torque wrenches such as those "powerbuilt" or whatever ones like what you get at "fine" automotive retailers such as Kragen. They work ok through the middle of thier torque range but at lower torques they are specified to work at, they don't work right at all and you are asking for problems. You will find out the hard way how bad they are.... Get what you pay for I guess. ?

[Dirty_Sanchez]

Egads!! Please don't put an anti-seize on the nuts and bolts to secure your skid plate you don't want it to fall off, now do you?.

Granted I'm a Loctite Factory Rep, but the ONLY place I put anti-seize on these bikes is on the exhaust mounting studs, and the threads on the spark plug. These are the only two high heat applications found on our bikes. Everything else gets blue in either the 248 in the stick one of the guys was referring to, or the liquid 242. Both are medium strength, and are removable.

Every fastener on our bikes has been designed to provide a certain clamping load based on the degree of elasticity the shaft of the male fastener provides. None of us have the tools or knowledge to calculate clampload on anything. So, engineers years back devised torque wrenches and decided to measure clamp load as a function of ft lbs, in lbs, or nm of force based on a LUBRICATED fastener calculated with a fasteners known degree of elasticity. Not many people know that a whopping 60 to 80% of what a torque wrench measures is actually measuring friction of the threads- Example: we torque something down to 100 in lbs on an unlubricated fastener 60 to 80% of that force is being used to over come the friction between the threads and only 20 - 40% of that force is being used to clamp the two parts together.

Is this making sense to you to now to lubricate your threads for the most accurate clamp load while working on your bike now?

The white powderey material one of the other posters mentioned is indeed corrosion, or more accurately galvanic corrosion. This happens when two dissimilar metals come in contact with each other. ie- a cad plated bolt in an aluminum engine block. Guess what? The cadmium plated bolt pulls ions out of the aluminum, and with that air space between the threads of each substrate coupled with occasional moisture, coupled with the ionic action, galvanic corrosion occurs.

Fastener galling once again is a phenomenon when fasteners of differing hardnesses are bound against each other. We all know we can gall aluminum with our eyes closed. While Anti-Seize will lessen this problem ever so slightly, it will NOT prevent loosening from thermal expansion/contraction from different metals, and will NOT prevent loosening from micromovements of various fasteners which keep our bikes from falling apart. Anti-seize is nothing more than metal dust mixed in with grease, and we all know grease will slowly evaporate as it is heated leaving behind a thin film of metal dust that LUBRICATES a fastener as you remove it.

A threadlocker WILL however prevent galvanic corrosion (because it fills the small airgap between the male and female parts of a fastener) prevent rust-lock (water can't displace a cured threadlocker), prevent loosening from thermal expansion/contraction, and prevent loosening of fasteners subjected to micromovement, and a threadlocker also acts as a lubricant-allowing you to get the most accurate torque readings.

Now to get off of my soap box I am

Dirty

[sndmn2]

Good reading. Thanks for the info. Theres blue and red Locktite. Is there something that could be used if we don"t nessesarily want a locking type material or should we consider blue to be that?

[MutualBill]

I use permatex antisieze...and get it from an autoparts store.

Never use loctite in aluminum...unless you wish to pull the threads out when you remove the bolt.

[Erik Marquez]

I use permatex antisieze...and get it from an autoparts store.

Never use loctite in aluminum...unless you wish to pull the threads out when you remove the bolt.

?? Bill,, where did you get that from?

I've been using the appropriate version anaerobic thread locker on steel fasteners in aluminum for years,, as well as Ti and Aluminum fasteners in aluminum.. and never a problem.

Perhaps if you used a high strength locker on a steel fastener and aluminum threads,, you could have issue,, But that would be the technicians fault,, not the thread locker. ?

Have you had problems yourself? If so,, who? what? What thread locking compound did you use?

[Dirty_Sanchez]

Mutual Bill-

Not to toot my own horn about where and where not to use a threadlocker vs. an anti-seize but this very application is how I make a living and I know what I'm talking about.

If you're good at deciphering words, look at the word anti-seize. Using anti-seize on a fastener will not allow a screw or bolt to reliably hold onto female threads. Anti-Seize...it will never seize if you use it. Can any of us afford to have a threaded fastener failure...ever? My health is pretty important to me.

Since none of us can risk our bikes falling apart on us while 10 feet in the air, or 40 miles from nowhere, anti-seize will not prevent loosening from micromovements, or loosening from thermal expansion/contraction.

You likely have had some sort of aluminum thread pulling experience in the past to make that sort of observation, but here's a few scenario's that likely caused your failures:

Red High Strength Permenant Threadlocker might have been used..a major no no on our bikes.

Or not enough threadlocker was applied to the thread engagement area. Remember to file this thought away- mechanical thread engagement (actual thread metal to metal contact) is only 15 to 30% which leaves an abundance of air space for galvanic action and rust to occur. If you don't use enough threadlocker to completely seal off that airspace, you're spinning your wheels.

But if you did have failures on your aluminum threads, and used the correct amount of a threadlocker, and you used a quality torque wrench ensuring you didn't OVER-TORQUE (pulling the treads) to start with, you might consider using a purple low strength threadlocker.

I made that last statement because just last week while doing end user training at an Allison Transmission Rebuild Facility on a military base here in Louisiana, I got into this very same discussion. And guess what? The entire group of 30 guys came to the conclusion that the aluminum threads had been pulled due to over torquing from the get-go. Calibrated clicker style torque wrenches and lubricated threads rule!

Drop me a PM if you want to debate some more.

Cheers Everyone!

Dirty

[tom slick]

Here is a webpage on fastener torque with some good info

http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners_torque/index.asp

[SPUTTER]

Dielectric tune-up grease should prevent corrosive ion movement if it can withstand moisture, and would give the lubrication needed for correct torque values. Most are silicon based. But anti-seize works well in my experience.

Even with anti-seize I doubt that most clean and torqued fasteners would necessarily fail by rotating apart - the frictional pressure of the opposing threads is very strong - think of the inside of an engine that was assembled with moly-lube and then is constantly bathed with hot oil, endures thermal expansion and contraction, vibration, etc. yet, the threaded elements hold. I've used anti-seize on brake pins for years and never had one come loose.

[MutualBill]

Experience...red lock tight on fine thread.

As a side note...I have never had a bolt loosen up out off aluminum with out the lock-tite...so why risk the thread damage?