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Well, my head is toast.......

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Alright guy's... I got my 04 CF250 a few weeks ago. I have put 2 rides on it. I have changed the oil 2 times so far. I was out riding today was I dumped it in a corner. I pick it back up, start it and hear a funny noise coming from the motor so I ride slowly to the exit of the track and right before I get off the track BAM... I just locked up. I didn't notice any sign's of seizing like loss of power, any other abnormal noises or anything like that. I get it home and IMEDIATELY start to tear into it. Well, the head is toast... Not exactly sure what to do... But it is very obvious that for some reason I was not getting any oil to the top end. I drained the oil out and yes there was oil in it (im not that dumb). I was dumb though and forgot to measure it before I disposed of it, but it looked pretty close to the amount that I put in.

My questions are...

If my head is cooked like that, what else should I check for? I checked the piston and cylinder and both of those look great.

I only went down as far as the head to im not sure what the bottom end looks like. Should I remove the cylinder and look at the crank? I have kicked it over a few times with the head off and everything feels smooth, no weird noises or anything like that.

What are my options for heads? I will possibly need a new cam (it isn't scarred but is apparent that is got VERY hot. The center of it is blue. I don't know what kind of work can be done to heads as I have never had a problem with any bike I have ever owned, but the intake "valve bucket" (it sits on top of the intake valve) is very scarred up, and was almost seized to the head itself.

I know alot of guy's talk about RHC and would love to get in touch with him and see what he has to say. RHC if you read this post could you please leave some feedback or I will get in touch with you tomorrow.

Please help guy's. I am pretty mechanically inclined and will do the rebuild my self. I would like to stick with OEM stuff if at all possible but what are my options here?

Thanks

Dave

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Hello,

Cam bearings are not siezed but do feel a little rough... I am not sure if they are hurt in any way or may be rough because they don't have any oil on them.

The only thing that is really "toasted" is the rocker arm (the little roller on there is siezed up) and possibly the cam. I dont know what could be damaged on the valves but everything looks to be in good shape?

The dealer told me that I am SOL. It has been ridden on the tracked and I have done work to it now. I called them after I opened it up and they said once I opened it up there is nothing the could do for me. They also said that since it has a pipe on it that any kind of warrenty is voided anyway which I didn't know...

I don't mind fixing the things that are wrong, just need some help on what else could be wrong.

Here are a few pics...

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DSCF0078.JPG

DSCF0079.JPG

DSCF0080.JPG

DSCF0081.JPG

The pics are a little tough to see some of them because I could not get a good angle to show the wear on it... Hopefully those will be good enough.

Thanks

Dave

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Well, I got the extended warrenty for free. It was package "C" Which was suppose to cover EVERYTHING. If I would have paid for this warrenty I would have gave this guy an ear full... I figure there is no going any further with that as I have already given up... Talked to the Honda shop today for almost 2 hours trying to get someone to tell me to bring it in and they would warrenty it, or at least break into it and see if they would warrenty it... What sucks is that the pipe was free when I bought the bike so they already knew about that... I tried telling them that I never put a pipe on it but they show it in their system and the guy said there is no way around that...

Dave

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i looked on the honda website and it says nothing about a warranty and i asked the salesman and he said honda does not warranty race bike. did my sales guy lie to me? :cry:

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i looked on the honda website and it says nothing about a warranty and i asked the salesman and he said honda does not warranty race bike. did my sales guy lie to me? :cry:

The CRF250R does NOT come with any type of warranty since it is designed for racing... not sure about the X.

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looking at the photos, especially the cam lobes, and your descriptions I would (given limited amount of info) vote at this point for:

some of this you already stated, Im just an old fart so like to repeat things......

:cry:

Low on oil, or oil starved (or maybe pump failure.)

Top end starved lube wise (at least what you know is effected)

If your cam bearings are rough, they are probably gone. (replace)

Looks like your cam is gone too, yeppers it got really hot (replace), as well as like you said the bearing in your exhaust rocker arm (system/package replace)

Cant tell from the photo if the cylinder and or piston has any damage, and what kind of knock you said you heard before you cut it off (loud knock like a gremlin in your motor with a hammer trying to get out) is a crank bearing.

bunch of carbon for two rides....wow.

I would pull the jug and check the play in the rod and crank.

Getting to the oil pump requires getting into the motor, but first things first.

Again this is a SWAG based on limited info and not being able to touch the parts, smell and feel the oil etc etc

hopefully someone else may have way better insight on it than me, but it sounds like you are on it.

Good luck!

Let us know what turns out.

HR

:cry:

:cry:

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Sorry to hear about your aching head!. There is no warranty on the CRF250r but sone dealers are selling extended warranties for them falsely. I bought an 05 R model and my dealer sold me an extended 4 year wheel to wheel warranty for $450 bucks . I called Honda a month later to ask about it and they practically laughed at me and Quoted . "There is no type of warranty on the CRF or CR model racebikes . So i went back to the dealership and demanded a refund. (which they did). But the salesman knew there wasnt a warranty on the CRF250 but wanted to make a buck and sold me one anyway knowing it was useless..Anyway sorry to change the topic but there is no warranty on CRF250Rs.

Good Luck with your head

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Right before it froze up it was more of a tick, not a nock. Nothing loud, just enough noise to make me start to think "that isn't good, i better get back to the pit and see what that is".

The piston and sidewalls look to be in great shape. I may just have to split the cases though and get down to the bottom end... I hate to do this but it makes me feel a little better so I can clean anything out of there that needs to be cleaned out, and also replace anything else that needs to be replaced.

Another question?

What all is lubricated on the same "circuit" as the head is? And is the piston lubed on a splash from the bottom end or how is that lubricated?

Thanks

Dave

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OK I'm just gonna take a stab in the dark. You say the center of your cam is blue, are there any other marks on it. My guess is the cam stopped spinning due to a clog in one of the oil ports or a lack of oil going to one of the ports leading into the head, I think theres ones right under the cam lobe. You say your cylinder and piston are fine. Check your valves while your at it, I'm sure your crank is fine, being that you can turn it over. Can someone please clarify that problem with the cam, I'm not really sure if my theory is right.

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... not sure about the X.

No warranty on the X. And according to my dealer, it is impossible to buy an extended warranty on a bike that doesn't come with some sort of warranty to begin with.

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Another question?

What all is lubricated on the same "circuit" as the head is? And is the piston lubed on a splash from the bottom end or how is that lubricated?

Thanks

Dave

In my '05 X service manual, there is an oil flow diagram on the page 4-2. It looks like there are only two main oil ports out of the oil filter; one goes back to the crank, and the other suppies oil to the piston oil sqirter and to the top end. I've read that the oil squirter supplies "supplemental" oil to the piston, so it's possible that there is an obstruction in the oil line either before or after the squirter without the piston dying. The squirter/top end oil port gets oil from the center of the oil filter and flows "up" out of the filter cavity. The crank port heads "back" toward the crank. Look inside the filter cavity (the port may even begin on the filter cover) at the "upper" port and see if anything is obstructed.

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Thanks for the replies guys.

Actually, after you said that about the cam, it looks as though the come was actually spinning in the cam housing rather than the bearings rolling. They are not scarred at all, but you can definitely tell that they moved just a little bit...

Here is what the list is going to look like so far....

Possibly new head (I need to pull the valves out tonight to check the intake side cyliders and see if they are scarred at all... if not then the head is still good)

New Cam

New cam bearing (it comes with one already on the cam)

possibly going with a aftermarket valve kit from fast mann

and all the seals that are needed...

The oil filter looked great when I pulled it out and had oil in it, so the bottom end I think is OK. I am just concerned about the oil pump.... I don't know if I should go down that far or if it is ok.

The piston and cylinder are great. They both show no signs of being over heated or lack of lube so I think I am good there. When I pull the jug to get to the bottom end, will I have to re ring it when I put it back together?

Thanks

Dave

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if oil supply suspect & your going to split case--might as well replace oil pump--unless there is a way to check pressure/output

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If the bearing surfaces are scored/grooved on the head (like it looks like in the picture) I would not reuse the head. Its hard to tell in the picture, is the cylinder blueish? I would check to make sure its still round. The CRF 250 uses a gear style oil pump, if that gets a score in it, consider it junk. IMO tear your engine apart and check everything otherwise a future repair bill could be alot higher.

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I didn't read thru this entire thread so I am not sure what needs to be done to fix your head. But if it is looking like its gonna cost big money to fix you might want to call www.enginedynamics.com they are the absolute best at fixing the unfixable. They saved me major money on my cooked yz400 head. Definately call them.

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when you laid it on the floor how long was it down for.ive crashed mine before and oil went down the breather into the air boot,luckily i looked behind me when i rode off and seen the biggest cloud of smoke ever,stopped the bike and the oil level was low,just a thought as to where your oil went possibly.

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I worked at a Honda dealer many years ago. We had a whole model year of top end seizures, the left side cam end bearing would turn blue and seize up. If anything is blue or scored, sorry to say: consider it toast. The cause finally turned out to be the side cover gasket that slightly overlapped the oil passageway between the case and clutch cover. The gasket would erode over time from the flow, just like the banks of a river. It only took a tiny piece of material to plug the tiny oil hole that led to the cam bearings.

I sugguest you carefully inspect your oil filter and maybe if you can trace the passageways from it to the top end? Maybe some compressed air blown from the top down might dislodge something evil? Something went terribly wrong in your top end, there have to be clues.

Re: Warranty? My dealer told me the CRF250's have NO WARRANTY from Honda. I said that spending $6,000 for something that might not start the moment I roll it off the showroom floor seemed like a very stupid move on my part. He said that if anything went wrong, they would make sure I was taken care of. Now that I have some time on my bike, I'm reasonably certain that he considers himself off the hook. But he sounded sincere. :cry:

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