John Curea

I'm a novice rider moving up to intermediate and I was thinking about buying the $5000 works suspension that pro circuit makes. I read a article saying that it's the same suspension that Tedesco uses. The question that I have for you are anyone else is that, I know a race tech certified technition and he told me that if your not at the speed of a pro, you won't feel the difference between the works suspension and $300 aftermarket springs. Is this true? I hate to spend all that money for nothing. It's hard for me to believe that you won't be able to tell the difference between aftermarket springs and $5,000 works suspension because I'm not as fast as a pro?

$5000, you are out of your mind son! I've read that its a complete waste of money, you can get alot of revalve for $5000 plus some.

Spend 500 - 750 for a good set up by a company like MX tech or others and use the 4000 left over to get more seat / track time and lessons from a pro. Honing your skills mean more than the suspension.

If you are not at that level of speed then their suspension will feel like crap. JC has done a good set up for my son on his RM85 years back, Ohlins stuff on a 125 and now the Showas on our CRF. The mods he does for us are not for the intermidate or novice rider. Anyone that rides my son's bike hates it unless they are much faster than he is. I am 90lbs heavier than my son and a spode on the bike and it is a tad harsh for me at times. After spending alot of hard earned cash on Juniors rides I took some advice from a few veterans. When he does a lap with the throttle full on and makes no mistakes then look at what you can do to make him faster otherwise allow him to use what he has to work with.

One more short story from my book...way back in 1982 when I was a hot shot local rider I went to Unadilla with my Husky dealer. I bought a bike that was run there, that one the national at that track. I was like WOW.... I took it back and started to ride it. It was a piece of crap for me, I was slower and never figured it out. It was all tricked out with Works suspension and tricked out cylinder. I had it 6 months and traded it. I also got hurt bad on it too.

Good Luck in your quest to be faster

Firstly, you will certainly notice a difference. Wether you will appreciate it or not is another story. If I was outlaying that much cash I would insist that the components were valved and sprung for my weight and ability. Only then will you truly benefit from the modification. I remain "yet to be impressed" with so called factory suspension given the expense. I would agree with Bodyman and suggest one on one training with a riding coach as your best option. The most tunable item on any bike is the monkey on top of it. This is also the area factory teams look to first when they are seeking championship winning performance. I bet DeCoster paid more for RC than he did for his forks. If you are looking to impress your freinds, do it with results rather than hardware.

The Duck

I'm sorry, but all of the advice except duck's, including your race tech guy's, is just not true. 'Works' suspension is not just suspension set up for pro's, it is better parts, with less stiction, better movement, and more control. It can be setup for anyone of any speed, just like stock suspension can, only it will work better when setup right. I have both, I know. If you get works stuff setup for a pro, it will not work well for you unless you are a pro, the same size, and ride similiarly. It's all in the setup

But is it worth it? Worth $4000 more than a good revalve/respring setup? No, not really. The biggest difference between my works suspension set up for me and my revalved stockers set up for me is how plush the works stuff is. Nothing fazes the works stuff, and it is less tiring to ride fast. Both sets have good control, do what I want, and let me ride the bike as hard as I can in control, the revalved stockers just let more 'hack' through to your arms and take more energy to ride hard for a long time. If you are racing 5 lap moto's the works stuff is a waste of money, because you should be in shape to go that long even on junky suspension. If you race 20 minute+ moto's, the works stuff helps a lot by letting you ride at max pace longer. That's the big difference. Whether it's worth it is up to each individual.

Also, Pro Circuit's works kit suspension is not the latest, or the best you can buy. It is not what Tedesco is running this year. RG3's diamond kit suspension is considered as good or better than what you get from Pro Circuit and it's around $2500.00. Factory Connection's works kit is awesome, it is what I have, but it costs about $5,000 also. If I was you and wanted great suspension to help with my race results I'd get Factory Connection or RG3 to set up my stock stuff for $500-$800. If you just want the best and will pay for it, I'd call RG3 and talk to them about the diamond kit suspension...you won't line up against anybody with better stuff than it once they set it up for you.(the works kit from Factory Connection may be a little better, but most wouldn't notice and it's twice the cost) You can see it here:

http://www.rg3suspension.com/rg3/DiamondKit.aspx

Pro Circuit Showa Kit suspension is the latest and best you can buy. Also Tedesco is using Pro Circuit Showa Kit. RG3 "Diamond Kit" is not even in the same league as the Pro Circuit stuff! The RG3 "Diamond Kit" is nothing but revalved and coated STOCK components.

The only Kit suspension that is even on the same level in terms of quality and performance to PC Showa Kit would be the Showa "A" kit. Unless your a Pro who races AMA supercross good luck getting that stuff!

Come on people do you really think Mitch Payton would be using anything but the best?!

Like others have said, if your just novice going to intermediate, just get a regular re-valve from a reputable shop and call it a day. On the other hand, if you are really wealthy and money is no object, then by all means pop for the works kit along with a good re-valve.

Pro Circuit Showa Kit suspension is the latest and best you can buy. Also Tedesco is using Pro Circuit Showa Kit. RG3 "Diamond Kit" is not even in the same league as the Pro Circuit stuff! The RG3 "Diamond Kit" is nothing but revalved and coated STOCK components.

The only Kit suspension that is even on the same level in terms of quality and performance to PC Showa Kit would be the Showa "A" kit. Unless your a Pro who races AMA supercross good luck getting that stuff!

Come on people do you really think Mitch Payton would be using anything but the best?!

Tedesco's stuff is the best, but unfortunately the stuff you can buy from Pro Circuit for $5,000 is not the latest stuff Tedesco is running according to anyone I've talked to in the know. Nearly everyone in the major suspension business will tell you Pro Circuit's stock of 49mm kit's they sell the public are older Suzuki stuff they bought that is not the latest generation internally, so you get big 49mm tubes(good for sx, not as good as 47's for mx according to most experts) and Ti coatings with older internals. And yes, the diamond kit is mostly coatings with a Ti rear spring, but the Ti, DLC and Kashima coatings are a lot of what makes works parts good by reducing friction/stiction so it's the same result. Unless you are running the Factory Connection/Showa exclusive internals or Showa 'A' kit forks with better oil moving internals the diamond kit stuff is just as good, and even then most amateur riders couldn't tell the difference at that high level of performance.

I don't want to argue, and I've explained my point of view. When I went after the best stuff money could buy I talked to RG3, Mike Battista in person, and Steve Ross at Factory Connection. If you think the Pro Circuit stuff is the best then buy it and be happy, but the best tuners in the suspension field will tell you you could have had better for the same money. Each to his own though, we're splitting hairs over stuff so good most riders could never test accurately enough to get close to it's potential.

Un-true about the PC Showa Kit. Unfortunately you been misinformed by some of the compition to PC :naughty: . The 49 mm upper fork tubes are not old "stock" tubes from Suzuki. I have too been told this by a major competitor to PC and in the same breath the sales man told me PC Kit shock isn't 18mm, WRONG. PC 's 49 mm tubes come directly from Showa of Japan and are equivalent to the lastest Showa "A" kit. I have seen the suspension and the tubes do not resemble anything Suzuki has ever used.

Now on to the internals, while you are right about how sometimes the PC race team does use "prototype" parts in their suspension which is unavailable to the public, this technology usually makes it way in to the Kit suspension. The reason PC makes some of the internal pieces for themselves is because they CAN and its BETTER than what Showa supplies! PC constantly test and refines their suspension. Other aftermarket suspension companies cannot and therefore rely on what Showa supplies them. Who do you think makes the machined lugs on the Factory Connection race teams bike? Answer - Pro Circuit!

In the end your right about how all this is just splitting hairs, most of what is available is better then what most people could even tell. Just wanted to clear up some "misinformation" out there. :naughty:

Boy, we've gotten way off topic, but that's interesting, and you may be right. Unfortunately I don't know you, so it's hard for me to just trust your word over people I do know, that's not personal just true. But the upper tubes don't mean much to me either way, it's the internals and setup that make the biggest difference in performance. Even if what you say is true and their in-house internal parts are near 'A-kit spec' level, it's strange how many sets I see bought there by guys who really can ride and test that are then sent elsewhere for setup, usually FC and now MB1...makes you wonder why. I've known more guys unhappy with PC's setup than I've known satisfied with it, and usually after the second revalve they send it elsewhere. Some may have other experience. I certainly respect Mitch a lot, and his motors are awesome, but their suspension available for public consumption has never impressed me.

Bottom line is, even though I have works suspension, I don't believe many Int. riders could improve their performance on ANY works stuff any more than they could on RG3's diamond kit stuff, me included. I built/tested mine in stages, changing a few parts at a time so I could see what did what(yes, it cost more this way), and once you get past a good springs/valving/oil setup and Ti or DLC legs you reach a point of greatly diminishing returns changing out parts where cost becomes much more than performance gained. Knowing that, I can't recommend that a guy spend a lot more on 'kit' suspension to get what little extra I know he'll likely never be able to use or notice. I've still got some more new works parts coming from Showa Japan this month for my forks and I can't see how it will help much at this point, they are unbelievable now, but we'll see. Local guys who said 'you're nuts, it's a waste' when they heard what I spent in all were dumbfounded and said 'worth every penny, I'm saving up' after one ride. The turnaround was pretty funny, and the testing process has been fun. :naughty: Thanks for giving me your view, it's been enlightening.

Has anyone in here actually opened up a works fork, because if the components like the spindle, fork tube are Ti coated, that will only run youy $400 for a batch. I believe the rest is spring, oil and valving. I guess what I am asking is "what is the exact difference in part(s) quality, different piston design and so forth"

Answering this would determine alot. You never here of the gurus stating exactly what is inside. Someone has to know?

KaBooM

A few months ago I was shopping at a local place that sells lost UPS freight. To my surprise I found a works kit showa shock sitting on the shelf. I bought it. I ended up selling the shock to a TT member.

The shock was very high quality. Had I kept it , I would have hung it above the fireplace. There is no way in hell it would ever be confused with a factory connection diamond kit. The entire body was machined out of billet aluminum. You could still see tool marks under the special coatings. The shock was beautiful.

There was a Race Tech sticker on the outside of the shock. I tried to call them but was not able to find a live person to talk to.

I dialed up pro circuit and told the person who answered my story. They did not believe me. They asked questions about symbols on the shock as well as serial numbers. The guy talking on the phone covered the reciever. I heard him talkign to someone.."A guy in Utah found the shock, he said" I was not supposed to hear this. I was then transfered to the suspension department.

To make a long story short, the conversation was interesting.

Number one,...all showa works suspension is imported by pro circuit. They then distribute to the other companies. If you own a works shock or fork in the usa, it went through pro circuit. There are two levels. Works "A" and works "B". They keep records and were able to tell me exactly who, what and where this shock came from. This shock did go to race tech. Apparently the shock was lost in transit back to race tech after the us open. Pro Circuit said..."send it in. Our ups account number is ........." We will make it worth your while. They never did give me an exact figure so I sold it to an extremely cool TT member in New York. I will not give his exact identity.

Yes, it sounds like one of those fish stories. It really sounds more made up than those. The shock was cool enough that I almost bought a CRF just to be able to try it. I do have pictures of the shock if anyone is interested. jamesc4085@msn.com

I dont know how to post pictures. If anyone would post the picture for me, I will send it.

Number one,...all showa works suspension is imported by pro circuit. They then distribute to the other companies. If you own a works shock or fork in the usa, it went through pro circuit.

I remember when you posted about finding that shock, what a cool find! Can't imagine that happens very often.

As far as the quote above, it is simply not true. Some companies may buy stuff through Pro Circuit, but certainly not all. Factory Connection gets their works stuff directly from Showa Japan, and some of their parts, like the works internals kit, are only available from Showa through FC and no one else. I would be surprised if MB1 got anything through Pro Circuit either.

Has anyone in here actually opened up a works fork, because if the components like the spindle, fork tube are Ti coated, that will only run youy $400 for a batch. I believe the rest is spring, oil and valving. I guess what I am asking is "what is the exact difference in part(s) quality, different piston design and so forth"

Answering this would determine alot. You never here of the gurus stating exactly what is inside. Someone has to know?

KaBooM

When I tear mine down for the first time I will take photos of them next to the stock parts. I know the entire inner cartridge is different, the SPG collar(?) is different, etc. I'm curious to see myself when I get them apart.

Thanks for that info. I wish I knew the guys name who told me that at pro circuit. He SWORE everythign went through them.

Then again, he wanted my shock! LOL

Email me the pic of that shock and I'll post it for you. mxaddict@ev1.net I still can't believe you found it like that, too cool.

Finding that shock was nuts. I almost wanted to wipe my eyes...like I was seeing things.

I have searched the store every week since then. My grand total of motorcycle parts found was a BR8es sparkplug I bought for 25 cents.

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