Hinson clutch basket for 04 YZ250F?

[Fixins]

Will a Hinson clutch basket fix the 250F clutch problems, (ie Clutch not disengaging, hard to find neutral, grabby, etc,etc...). Also Can I run just the Hinson clutch basket with the stock Yamaha parts? Or do I need to get the inner hub and pressure plate? I would like to keep it some what inexpencive.

[SUnruh]

a new hison basket might fix the symptoms if the problem is a grooved basket. same goes for the hub.

if either can snag a fingernail or pick, it can cause these symptoms.

all depends on where the problem is exactly.

could be warped drive plates.

[CBDaddy]

The fingernail test is a great test for clutch baskets and hubs. Grooved clutch basket tangs will hinder smooth plate movement. I'm a fan of the Wiseco baskets since they are forged (stronger) like Wiseco pistons. They would be less likely to fatigue or break after prolonged use. Wear resistance will be the same on a Hinson or a Wiseco.

Here is a step by step on how to change your basket if you need to. . .

Changing an aftermarket clutch basket

[Fixins]

Thanks for the info so far. The last time I had the clutch apart I did not find any groves. I usually get most of my problems when I let the bike sit for 2 weeks or more. The last time I had it apart the friction plates were all most completely dry except for the bottom 1/2 inch or so. I had a 02 250F and I never had any clutch problems and it sat for months between rides.

[grayracer513]

SUnruh is correct that the basket will only help if there's something wrong with the one you have, and that plates are at least as likely to cause your symptoms, either because they're warped, or they're just old and the composite is breaking down. Uneven clutch springs can cause the problem, too.

Your problem could be oil related as well. Some people have complained about Yamalube 4 and one or two others having made their clutch act up.

I'm a fan of the Wiseco baskets since they are forged (stronger)

I like Wiseco products, too, but there's nothing that suggests that because a part is made from a forging. it will necessarily be either stronger, or as strong as, the same part made from a solid billet.

[CBDaddy]

I like Wiseco products, too, but there's nothing that suggests that because a part is made from a forging. it will necessarily be either stronger, or as strong as, the same part made from a solid billet.

There certainly is something to suggest forgings are not only as strong, but stronger than the same part made from billet. Aluminum has grain to it just like a block of wood. If you machine something from billet (block) of aluminum, it will still have the original grain direction and orientation to it, just like if you were to machine something out of a block of wood. In an aluminum forging, you don't CUT into the grain. Instead the grain direction is "forged" into its new shape under extreme temperatures and pressures, but left unbroken. The grain is aligned to the features of part, which adds strength and toughness to the finished product. It is a metallurgical fact that aluminum forgings have higher fatigue properties than unforged wrought alloys.

Ever hear of forged levers? Forged pistons? Forged brake calipers? You forge a product when you want the added strength properties of a forging over billet (or when trying to save on material costs).

The main reason so many people make speed parts from billet is because of the flexibility to program whatever you want the machine on a CNC mill or lathe. I'm not at ALL saying that billet products aren't strong enough, I'm just saying forgings are tougher and have higher fatigue properties when comparing the two.

[grayracer513]

Ever hear of forged levers? Forged pistons? Forged brake calipers? You forge a product when you want the added strength properties of a forging over billet (or when trying to save on material costs).

The main reason so many people make speed parts from billet is because of the flexibility to program whatever you want the machine on a CNC mill or lathe. I'm not at ALL saying that billet products aren't strong enough, I'm just saying forgings are tougher and have higher fatigue properties when comparing the two.

Gee, no, I never have. ?

There are a couple of areas you're overlooking.

Forging aluminum has to be done with materials that are malleable enough to forced into their semi finished shape under pressure with a minimum of heat applied. Machining parts from billets is not bound by any such restriction in material selection, and a wide selection of raw stock materials can be purchased, many at a level of hardness and heat treatment that one would be hard pressed to impart to a forging, particularly as concerns silicon content. Investment casting, the "lost wax" method, also provides grain control on a parallel with forging, and is also free of the restraints related to immalleability. (Ruger firearms, recognized as some of the best in the world, have been cast by that method for at least 30 years) Heat treating after the forging, before the final machining, is difficult with aluminum, because the temperatures required tend to cause a considerable amount of distortion. Gains have been made in this area, but it is still an extra step the manufacturer must either tool up for humself, or sublet. With billets, the material is simply bought at the strength level desired.

Forging requires tooling that is expensive to buy and hard to set up and maintain. Wiseco already had it because of their well known piston business, and simply adapted it to clutch baskets with a relatively easy tooling change. CNC machining from billets, as you alluded, really only requires one machine to make any of hundreds of different parts, and mills in general are so reliable and easy to keep up that the obvious waste of material (partially recovered through recycling) is made up for by lower set up time and expense. It is also much better suited to short quantity runs.

The entire question of grain is actually more of an issue with forged parts than with billets, since the forging process actually creates most of it. Any "grain" that forgings have is the result of the metal being forced from its original shape into another, and the process must be strictly controlled, or what you get for "grain" will be intramolecular fractures that failed to me re-bonded with the surrounding material, and it can become a weak spot, rather than a strength. The grain in high quality 7075 extruded billets is so uniform that it is almost imperceptible under a microscope.

So, while I'm willing to concede that Wiseco clutch baskets may indeed be stronger than any of their competition, the simple statement "forgings are stronger" doesn't bear close inspection, and can't stand up absent more specific facts to go with it.

And, until someone shows me a broken Hinson basket (from something other than the attaching bolts working loose), I'll say they are at least as strong as they need to be.

[CBDaddy]

So, while I'm willing to concede that Wiseco clutch baskets may indeed be stronger than any of their competition, the simple statement "forgings are stronger" doesn't bear close inspection, and can't stand up absent more specific facts to go with it.

And, until someone shows me a broken Hinson basket (from something other than the attaching bolts working loose), I'll say they are at least as strong as they need to be.

[CB]I agree - Both Hinson and Wiseco make great products. I completely agree that both are as strong as they need to be. I believe Wiseco forged baskets to be slightly lighter, but we won't resolve that debate here.

The entire question of grain is actually more of an issue with forged parts than with billets, since the forging process actually creates most of it.

[CB]False. The forge process does not create any grain. It only changes the direction of grain that is already present in the material.

The grain in high quality 7075 extruded billets is so uniform that it is almost imperceptible under a microscope.

[CB]True - but the grain exists because of the extrusion process. The grain is oriented into extruded alloys after the cast ingot is pressed through a die under extreme pressures - essentially forging it into a linear bar with linear grain.

Forging aluminum has to be done with materials that are malleable enough to forced into their semi finished shape under pressure with a minimum of heat applied. Machining parts from billets is not bound by any such restriction in material selection, and a wide selection of raw stock materials can be purchased, many at a level of hardness and heat treatment that one would be hard pressed to impart to a forging, particularly as concerns silicon content.

[CB]Agreed. Alumium forgings are limited to certain alloys. Certain alloys containing high pecentages of certain elements like silicon make them better cast alloys than forging alloys. However, many of the most popular billet alloys like 6061, 7075, and 2024 are also very forgable. Hi Silicon casting alloys like 390 can be forged under special conditions, but are not generally considered forgable.

Heat treating after the forging, before the final machining, is difficult with aluminum, because the temperatures required tend to cause a considerable amount of distortion. Gains have been made in this area, but it is still an extra step the manufacturer must either tool up for humself, or sublet. With billets, the material is simply bought at the strength level desired.

[CB]Most common forging alloys like 2618, 4032, 2014, or even when 6061 or 7075 are forged, are not difficult at all to heat-treat. It's like baking cookies; each alloy has a specific heat-treat recipe to achieve the desired temper. Distortion is a possibility after heat-treating forgings, but it is easily reduced to a negligable amount by stress relieving during the machining process or machining equal amounts of material from both sides of a section thickness.

With billets, the material is simply bought at the strength level desired.

[CB]How do you think billet stock stength levels are achieved? Through the EXACT same heat-treat process as forgings! 6061-T6 is the same whether it is heat-treated before or after being forged.

Please reply to my responses if you would like, but I don't want to keep going back and forth. I think we have had a well spoken and well argued debate on the topic that will give fellow TT'rs plenty to think about. I offer you the last word, but after that, let's get back to working on our bikes and planning our next ride instead of splitting hairs over 2 different manufacturing processes that can both produce great parts! ?

[grayracer513]

With billets, the material is simply bought at the strength level desired.

[CB]How do you think billet stock stength levels are achieved? Through the EXACT same heat-treat process as forgings! 6061-T6 is the same whether it is heat-treated before or after being forged.

Of course, you are correct, but my point was that with a billet, the heat treatment has no effect on the manufacturing process at all, because it's been done already.

My only other point was that just as anything else can be done wrong, the forging process can be screwed up too, and the simple fact that a part is forged doesn't tell the entire story about quality and strength. That, and that a properly produced part machine from a high quality billet can rival (perhaps not exceed) the strength of the best forgings.

But since it seems we mostly agree, I don't see why I shouldn't buy you a beer. If you aren't here by 10:00, I'm afraid I'll have to drink it for you. ??

[ductape]

Did i just read an intelligent disscussion?

[grayracer513]

Did i just read an intelligent disscussion?

I apologize, and I promise not to do it anymore.

?

[CBDaddy]

But since it seems we mostly agree, I don't see why I shouldn't buy you a beer. If you aren't here by 10:00, I'm afraid I'll have to drink it for you. ?

Thanks for drinking that beer for me. I wouldn't want it to go to waste!

Fun spar! It was a good exchange of information. See you on the trail or at the track! ?

[Fixins]

Wow it looks like i started a pretty in depth discussion.

So what do you guys think about drilling the clutch boss mod to get more oil to my clutch?

[grayracer513]

Wow it looks like i started a pretty in depth discussion.

So what do you guys think about drilling the clutch boss mod to get more oil to my clutch?

The '04 should have an adequate number of holes already, I would think. Should be 12 or so. I am under the impression that the earlier models needed this, but that in later years, more were added. I could be wrong.

[CBDaddy]

Wow it looks like i started a pretty in depth discussion.

So what do you guys think about drilling the clutch boss mod to get more oil to my clutch?

Sorry - I'm not sure on how beneficial that mod is. My stock clutch inner hubs have always worked okay, and I'm not a fast enough rider (or hard enough on the clutch) to have ever worn one out. I know Hinson usually loads their inner hubs up with oil holes, so I'm sure it helps promote oiling through the entire clutch stack.

[Fixins]

Thanks I will take a look at my clutch basket when I take it apart this weekend.