Do 88cc Kits Need Case Work To Fit?

[woodsrat]

I'm trying to put an LA Sleeve 88cc Kit into an '05 CRF-70 motor and the cylinder won't fit into the cases. Although their catalog says "the kit bolts right on" and "is the largest available kit that fits the stock cases" the cylinder sleeve O. D. is just a bit larger than the case I. D. I've not heard of anyone having this problem with any of the other kits. Feedback? ?

[CRF50Racer]

do you have a link to that specific kit? I cant really help, but would like to see your kit... what all is in it? how much did you pay?

[woodsrat]

You can see it @ lasleeve.com. So much for trying to spend my money in

the U. S. I was hoping to get it together this weekend!!! ?

By the way the kit listed in their '04 catalog for $498 and comes w/cam and gaskets. They also said in the instructions that "cylinder may not fit due to casting insuffiencies (sic). Grinding of the cases may be necessary." Not only are they deceptive in their advertising but they can't spell, either!!! ?

[five0addict]

whaaat thats weak, they must just run too tight of tolerances.

never heard that one before.

[CRF50Racer]

wow... that really sucks.... did you ever look at the TB kit??? http://www.hondatrailbikes.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45&products_id=174

cheaper, more power, and it'll fit together

[woodsrat]

I'm ordering one on Tuesday--I rode one at the last race in a team event and it was a rocket!! Too bad the bike didn't have good brakes...

By the way, the cylinder sleeve O. D. is 2.143" (54.43mm). Anyone have one of the other brand 88cc kit cylinders on the shelf to measure?

[aedwards07]

I know for a fact the the TB kits fit perfect with the honda engines.

[CRF50Racer]

So do I... based on experience ?

[woodsrat]

I called L. A. Sleeve today and talked to "Dave" who told me that they have had about three Honda motors that wouldn't accept the cylinders due to casting differences. He also told me that their cylinder skirt is the same size as the other 88cc kits available.

For what it's worth the L. A. Sleeve kit's cylinder measures 2.143" and my cases measure 2.152" across and 2.133" vertically. This hole may not be concentric with the center of the crankshaft so I might have to enlarge the hole in two directions to make it fit. ?

The stock 70 cyinder's skirt measures 2.060", considerably smaller than the hole it goes into.

[aedwards07]

My advice would be to send it back and just get a TBkit.That LA sleve kid is WAY overpriced.For $400 from trailbikes you can get a 88 kit with a race head and 20mm carb.That is like comparing a stock motor to a basic 88kit.The race head will leace the stock head in the dust.Also you wil be saving $100 and can put that toward something new for ur 50.

[CRF50Racer]

My advice would be to send it back and just get a TBkit.That LA sleve kid is WAY overpriced.For $400 from trailbikes you can get a 88 kit with a race head and 20mm carb.That is like comparing a stock motor to a basic 88kit.The race head will leace the stock head in the dust.Also you wil be saving $100 and can put that toward something new for ur 50.

that bill will buy you a new clutch.. (TB HD for $69) and some new rubber... which you'll need after experiencing the raw power of the TB kit ?

[woodsrat]

I talked to TB and they said their kit's cylinder sleeve is about 53mm vs. the LA Sleeve's 54mm. Mike @ TB said they've only had one motor that wouldn't accept an 88cc kit (an old Z-50 dating to pre-1970). Given that the LA Sleeve kit is bigger about the only thing I could see good about it is that there's meat enough in the cylinder to sneak in one overbore. Do they offer it? I don't know.

It appears to be well-made and the anodized red cylinder looks pretty cool, though. I got it at cost from the shop I ride out of so I'll just throw it on the shelf and try it on the next motor I build which will probably be the stock 70 motor I'm running now. It's still a chunk of change to just be gathering dust, even at cost!! ?

[dirtbkr188]

I would think that any machine shop would be able to shave the extra mm off the outside surface of the cylinder skirt. Bring the cylinder with you, and give it a shot.

[woodsrat]

I thought about that myself since we're only talking about .040" and I could easily chuck it in my lathe and do it myself. On the other hand the amount of aluminum needed to be removed from the cases to be close to fitting is around .010-015". Again since it's a brand-new motor I just hate to tear it down just to remove such a small amount of aluminum. The people at LA Sleeve said to just jam a rag into the opening and open it up with a Dremel but I don't like the idea that I might end up with aluminum chips in the motor, careful as I might be. For now I'll use the TB kit and sit the other one aside for another motor.

THANKS to everyone at thumpertalk for your assistance and feedback on this problem--I really appreciate it!!! Also big thanks to Mike @ TB and Lyle @ Classic Honda for their returning my e-mails. ?

[woodsrat]

L. A. Sleeve--The Saga Continues...

I'm building a 106cc stroker motor and decided to dig up the unused L. A. Sleeve 88cc big-bore kit that I bought to put on the new 70 motor I built in '05, hoping that at very least I could salvage the cylinder and use it with the stroker piston that came with the Takegawa crank kit. No such luck--the L. A. Sleeve kit's bore turned out to be +.002" larger than the Takegawa piston so it wouldn't work with this piston. While this kit was out I noticed the piston's valve reliefs seemed to be much smaller than the ones on the Takegawa piston. Measuring the L. A. Sleeve piston's valve reliefs showed them to be 19/16mm--the same size as the valves on a stock 50 head. The 70's head uses 23/20mm valves so obviously there's going to be some interference the first time the motor turns over if I were to try to use this piston. It was my suspicion that they had put a piston for a 50 into my 70 kit's box.

I called L. A. Sleeve and they said to ship the piston back to them. It came back yesterday with a note saying that "the tech's observation (is that) the piston is for an XR/CRF-70." I'd also mentioned that this big-bore kit had served as nothing more than an expensive paperweight for the last year and a half and they told me I should have contacted them within thirty days of purchase. The thing is, I did--and they told me to return it to the place of purchase. Unfortunately it was a non-returnable special order so I was pretty much stuck with it.

This weekend is the Dealernews Expo in Indianapolis and I'm going--I think I'll pack both a 70 and 50 head as well as their piston and show them the problem in person. I'll let you know what they say.

[five0addict]

the piston should clear, and run. just have lower compression and not make as much power. (side note for readers, always turn the motor over by slowly turning the flywheel with the spark plug removed before kicking a rebuilt engine!) what is the size of the la sleeve bore? .001" per side piston clearance doesnt sound bad.

[woodsrat]

.001" per side (total clearance .002") is too much by my standards for a brand-new motor, especially a stroker. As previously mentioned in this forum their cylinder skirt is about .040" larger than other kits available which is why it wouldn't fit into the cases without machine work, despite their claim that "it bolts right on." Why do they do this? Perhaps so that they're the only place you can get a replacement piston. They wouldn't be the first company to make their stuff in bastard sizes so you couldn't go anywhere else for parts...

The sad thing is that I purchased the L. A. Sleeve kit in my "pre Internet" days before I learned about TB and their excellent parts at less than half what I paid for this pile. At the time I bought this kit I thought it was the only one available for a 70 motor.

The common theme that I've discovered over the past 35+ years is that most of the sham artists in the motorcycle industry come out of the southern California area. The attitude towards us here in the midwest seems to be hey, they're over a thousand miles away, what are they gonna do to us?

[woodsrat]

LA Sleeve's 88cc Kit--the saga continues (Part 2)

I took a set of stock XR-50 valves, a set of stock XR-70 valves, a stock XR-70 piston and the piston I suspected was not correct to the Indy Dealernews Expo and gave them to "Dave" who was working the L. A. Sleeve booth. He said the guy I needed to talk to was "Nicholas" who unfortunately wasn't there at the booth at the moment. I came back the next day, discussed the problem with Nicholas and he said he'd take care of it.

Weeks went by and I never received anything back. I repeatedly called L. A. Sleeve and the operator always told me that "Nicholas had just stepped out". Finally in disgust I asked to speak to the owner and instead was put in touch with Dave, who told me he'd take care of it.

Today a package arrived from L. A. Sleeve. In it was a Taiwanese piston with "BBR" marked on the crown that was .003" smaller than the cylinder it was supposed to fit (specs call for around .001")!!! L. A. Sleeve makes a big deal out of the fact that they sell NIKS pistons with their kits so why did I end up with this P. O. S.??? To top this off they neglected to send me back the XR-70 piston I'd given them as a sample which I wanted to keep as it was still very usable with the stock 70 cylinder it went with.

I tried to call and speak with the owner but they were closed today, probably because of the holiday. I sent the owner a lengthy fax describing my experiences with their product and will be calling them on Monday.

With the last two shipments they've sent me a pile of L. A. Sleeve stickers and a T-shirt--like I'm going to do anything to advertise for them...

I'll continue to let you know what happens but here's the bottom line at this point--L. A. Sleeve has been totally unresponsive to my concerns and problems with their big-bore kit and I highly recommend that you stay away from their products. The Honda Trail Bikes 88cc kit that I ended up buying to use instead of the L. A. Sleeve kit has proven to be stone-reliable after almost two years of service and cost half as much--and it came with a carburetor!!!

[woodsrat]

I just got off of the phone with "Dave" again of L. A. Sleeve, who says he's one of the owners of the company. We discussed the problem and I got him to issue a call tag and UPS will be coming to pick up the cylinder and the piston that arrived the other day. He said he would re-sleeve and bore the cylinder to match the piston as he has no NIKS pistons that will work with the 70 motor.

I also asked him why he would continue to offer a big-bore kit for the XR/CRF-70 if it doesn't work and he said they no longer offer it.?

As mentioned in the thread above I highly recommend the Honda Trail Bikes kit for the XR/CRF-70. It bolted right on and the only problem I've had is that the carburetor that came with it two years ago wasn't jetted correctly in the needle area and I still haven't gotten it totally correct yet. I have been running the stock carb (rejetted) and it performs great although the kit carb does allow it to run better on the top end. The newer versions may be corrected by now. Has anyone bought the basic bore kit w/carb recently and have any feedback for us?

[dirtbkr188]

I use the TrailBikes 20mm on all my bikes, and only had to change a main jet and lower the clip one notch one time. All the other times, it was an install, make a few 1/4 turn adjustments with the air screw, and go. I feel they are well worth the 100.00 for the kit, complete with throttle cable, manifold kit, heatstop, and gaskets.