Breaking bumps = Holy Mowly!

[Crazyced]

At the track yesterday, an 90 degree curve was right after a long straight line. But the breaking bumps right before it looked pretty much like a whoop section with smaller bumps, they were all symmetric and equally spaced (pretty much). How do you do in this situation to be able to: clutch, break (front and rear) and downshift, all of this while standing up in these bumps? ? Consider that you get a good amount of speed in the straight line. Because I'm always out of balance and I need to sit to be able to use both rear break and shift lever. ?

Thank you :

Cedric

[berkeman]

You need to learn to balance on the pegs under deceleration (and acceleration), and you need to learn to work all the controls while you are standing. You'll probably need to adjust your shift lever up one spline notch from stock, and raise your brake pedal a bit. With those positions, you can downshift and get on the rear brake while leaned back on the pegs balanced against the deceleration. When leaning way forward under acceleration on the pegs, you get your left boot toe under the shift lever and lift your whole foot up slightly off the peg to upshift.

Here's an old post that talks in more detail about it (3rd post down in thread):

https://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155180

Also, when the braking bumps are nasty right in the hard deceleration part of the turn entry, consider pulling in the clutch for that last part and only using the brakes (both). Engine braking hard over braking bumps can really mess up a smooth entry. The brakes are easier to modulate with the bumps.

[DHS_CRF250R]

A tip i got given and thought was a load of balls was 'brake hard before the worst of the bumps, then power over them'.

I was like, 'no way', but i tried it on several tracks and it really works, because your not so 'out of control' and your suspension isnt loaded up as bad.

Its not so much powering, more like, constant throttle, so you dont enter corner too fast.

[Crazyced]

Also, when the braking bumps are nasty right in the hard deceleration part of the turn entry, consider pulling in the clutch for that last part and only using the brakes (both). Engine braking hard over braking bumps can really mess up a smooth entry. The brakes are easier to modulate with the bumps.

That mean using or not using the clutch? this part is confusing.

I guess I will also have to set my tools for the standing position and the breaking before the bumps could work too, but it would also look like a break check in a race. ?

I forgot to say it was a single line curve, each side of the breaking spot was pretty much under water. ?

[berkeman]

That mean using or not using the clutch? this part is confusing. ?

It depends on the corner. You want to be as smooth and balanced as you can going in and coming out of the corner, since that will usually get you through the fastest. And you want to be balanced leaned back while you decelerate really hard before the corner, and balanced forward while you pin it out of the corner.

If you are using engine braking really hard going into the corner and there are braking bumps, the back end usually chatters really badly, and your deceleration is really choppy, making it hard to stay balanced on the pegs, and making the back end hop around side-to-side in an unpredictable way, which is really distracting. On a big 4-stroke, you have the option of staying a gear higher to decrease the engine braking, and then maybe using a little clutch mid-corner to stay in the power band for the exit. But if you're using the back brake going in, especially if it's bumpy, it's hard to keep from sometimes briefly locking up the rear wheel, which can cause a stall. So usually when I'm hard on the rear brake, I'm also a little on the clutch to avoid a stall. And if the braking bumps are big, I'll usually pull in the clutch going over the last of them and concentrate on modulating the rear brake. Then as you're sitting down for the apex, ease off the rear brake as you feed in the throttle and let out the clutch. Try overlapping the rear brake and the power as you go through the apex. It really settles the bike and lets you power through slick apexes when you overlap a little. If there's a solid berm, just pin it. But if it's a little loose, overlapping can really smooth out the transition from decelerating to accelerating.

Too much rambling by me....hope it helps some.

[250Thumpher]

One thing that will help you get balanced on the track, is do as many laps as you can standing up. Even through the turns. Even if you just go slow, just stand up. This will also give you a good idea on when to sit down in the corners (you should be standing up into any corner, and sitting down at the apex)

[Jake155]

How about you go around them. Swing from the outside to the inside, you miss all the bumps that way and it sets you up perfect for the inside.

[LawDog101]

I really do not think you want to be moving all of your setup around including your brake pedal and shifter for one section. I am 6'2" tall and I run my shifter and brake in the standard position and have no problem getting back over the bike and using brake and shifter.

Also, I do not think it wise to be taking your feet off the pegs to do anything while you are in the middle of bad braking bumps. You really lose control that way.

First, start by eliminating variables. Meaning that your bike has to be in good shape, linkage lubed, fork and shock serviced, properly sprung or at least close for your weight, etc. A badly setup bike can cause you real problems and all the correct form and body position will get you nowhere.

Second, be sure that your skill level allows you to go through this corner like you want. Don't override your skills. If your skills are up to speed or at least close, you will want to do as little as possible when you are in the corner or coming up to it.

What I mean is this. If you are worried about brake, clutch, shifting, body position, etc. then you really aren't focused on the corner. The idea here is to accelerate up to the corner, through the braking bumps and get your braking done. Then in one motion, downshift, sit properly, and make your way through the corner. No need to worry about downshifting/clutching in the braking bumps. Do that when you need to, like right before you sit to make the corner.

Don't make any movements or actions until you need to or they are required. No need to drop from third to second until you are ready to use second. No need to brake until you are done accelerating...

Lastly, remember to use your strongest muscles to hand onto the bike. Those would not be your arms. Your legs and lower body and so much stronger than your arms. Use them to your advantage, and take the load off of your arms. Besides gripping with your legs also keeps the bike inline through some nasty stuff.

James

[Crazyced]

How about you go around them. Swing from the outside to the inside, you miss all the bumps that way and it sets you up perfect for the inside.

I forgot to say it was a single line curve, each side of the breaking spot was pretty much under water.

Also, what does overlapping mean? When I said I would set the levers, it was for the standing position in general.

And everyone say that you should sit when you hit the apex but when do you stand up again? After the First acceleration stage? But switching from sit to stand in full acceleration is demanding no?

[Jake155]

You sit down as soon as you hit the apex and stand up right when you get out of it duh. And i dont know, getting up while givint is gas is like a natrual motion.

[berkeman]

Also, what does overlapping mean? When I said I would set the levers, it was for the standing position in general.

And everyone say that you should sit when you hit the apex but when do you stand up again? After the First acceleration stage? But switching from sit to stand in full acceleration is demanding no?

Overlapping and lever position are two separate things.

Lever Position -- For some of us with clunky boots, it helps a lot to move the brake pedal and shift lever up a little, to make it easier to use them when leaning back on the pegs and braking hard. Try keeping your insteps on the pegs under braking, and rotate your left toe down to downshift and right toe down to modulate the brake. For me, I need the shift lever and brake pedal up a bit to reach them when I'm leaned back. If you have softer boots or whatever, you may not need to make the adjustment. As 250Thumper said, use the drill of riding the whole track standing (slowly at first, and then gradually increasing your speed) to help you see how to set up your bike controls. If you can't shift comfortably standing, then look at the control positions and practice more.

Overlapping -- Overlapping means applying both the throttle and brake at the same time. It's used in car racing, sportbike racing, and in dirtbike racing. On pavement, you generally overlap more, since the ride is a lot smoother. Coming into a corner, you ease off the throttle as you get progressively harder on the brakes, then as you get into the corner you trail brake some and start to get on the throttle near the apex. You can modulate the brakes some as you roll on the throttle coming out of the corner if you want to pull your front wheel(s) a little to the inside. The throttle and brakes are almost like a see-saw, where you ease off of one as you get onto the other. It really smooths out some corners. (BTW, it's a great way to smooth out going over speedbumps in your car too -- a little of both throttle and brakes keeps the suspension from hopping.)

In the dirt, you'd generally only overlap a little, right around the apex as you transition from slowing down to speeding up. If you free-wheel at that point or just get on the gas, it's sometimes hard to control your line and how much wheelspin you get. If you ride the rear brake pedal a little as you feed in the first part of the throttle with a little clutch help, the bike just kind of sits down for you and makes the transition happen without that slippery feeling. Of course, you can't overlap as late in righthand corners, because you need to get your right foot out near the apex. BTW, as you transition from standing to sitting while using the rear brake, you'll pick your right boot up off the peg and hold on with your right knee, as you use your right toe to modulate the brake. Gary Semics covers this in some of his videos.

As for standing and sitting rhythms, check out some of the videos at the TWMX riding videos page. The one with Chad Reed is especially good. Beautiful smooth riding!

http://www.transworldmotocross.com/mx/videos/0,20898,,00.html

[Crazyced]

Those of you who know me are probably surprised that I didn't post pictures yet. Well there they are! ?

This is the picture of the curve the whole thread is about, Now you know what's the deal :

Those picture are from other curves. I have to say that I pretty proud of me. It show that I was able to applie (give or take? ) instinctively the tips you gave us noob about cornering, such as look ahead, shoulder up, leg out, lean with the bike, etc:

Here's my self critic:

-don't lean enough

-leg out more

-maybe sit more in front

(Things you don't see with pictures)

-sit later

-stand sooner

-curve faster ?

Now what YOU think?

[berkeman]

Don't take this wrong, but those braking bumps don't look very big in the picture. That's a beautiful big berm on the outside of the turn, so I'd try just pinning it over the bumps and railing the berm. You can also look at those bumps as something to lift the front wheel over, then a short hard braking as you slam into the berm and power around. Remember that all the g-forces of hitting the berm will give you great traction for an instant, so you can slow down hard it you need to to stay in the berm. From the picture, though, it looks like you could really rocket around that baby!

[Crazyced]

Since I'm not used to stand up,I don't need much to loose balance. Actually, I was better at the end of the ride as I was used to the track. I'm really not used to bumps on a track (you saw mine ? ). I know I will be able to ''rocket'' around that berm...sometimes.

[250Thumpher]

You need to be standing up into the turn. In that first picture, you should be starting to sit down right where you are.

On your self critic, I usually like to stand up after the turn and just let the power of the bike take me up. Plus, you do not want to lean with the bike. In that second picture, it's like you're steeruing with just the front wheel! If you read that other thread, you want to lean that sucker over and sit up. I posted a picture that shows it perfectly. You won't believe how much more bite you get in the turns.

Also keep those elbows up. You're looking where you want and thats great. But if you have trouble balancing standing up, ride the track for 5 laps or so standing up, not sitting down, even through the turns. If you still dont feel comfortable after, do it again.

Doing this on your first lap out on the track for the day, will also let you know when you need to sit down (in the turn, you will have that feeling like, I need to sit down!!!)

[Jake155]

Im not gonna talk about your style or anything but im gonna give you some help on your line entry. Here is the first photo with a line on how you should be going into that turn http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/OiScoutJake/TTHelp.jpg I dont see any braking bumps on the outside then swing into the inside. There you missed all the braking bumps. Problem solved.

[Paradox]

Mild bumps, In the first picture come into the turn hotter from the outside and lean over and rail that slight rut that is right in front of you. That first picture is screaming "go faster" at me.

[sako_aper]

Hey Jake, you knew what he should be before you even saw the picture :-D

[Crazyced]

That first picture is screaming "go faster" at me.

I KNOW!!! ??

Jake, Thanks. I did saw afterward on the picture that the exterior was bumpless, but in the action... Does your tip is also good considering that there's no particular support on the inside (unlike the berm on the outside)? Would it be faster to flat track it (like I know how to do that )?

I will probably go there again the weekend after this one and I will post a pic of me on that same corner. I promis I'll be faster. ?

[Jake155]

I KNOW!!! ??

Jake, Thanks. I did saw afterward on the picture that the exterior was bumpless, but in the action... Does your tip is also good considering that there's no particular support on the inside (unlike the berm on the outside)? Would it be faster to flat track it (like I know how to do that )?

I will probably go there again the weekend after this one and I will post a pic of me on that same corner. I promis I'll be faster. ?

Pretty much you always want to float from the outside to the inside. It smoothens out the inside for you and just makes it alot faster and easier. And you should pretty much always be on the inside unless theres someone there slower and you can pass them on the outside. Being on the outside is waisting alot of time.