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Still more XR100 Kitaco inner rotor problems

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We picked up another Kitaco XR100 inner rotor setup for our back-up/practice bike from a horrible eBay seller [PM me for their name because they are bad news & the only one selling these on eBay right now] & this one seems to be completely screwed up. It won't run well no matter what we've tried.

Our other Kitaco equipped bike works OK but is in a trailer & gone for over a week for some riding & dialing in so we can't compare them.

The seller claims that it is common for Kitaco to install the pickup backwards & they are telling us to just flip it over.

They refuse to send us a diagragm or picture of a correctly assembled unit.

This setup just preignitied the kicker into trash so we don't want to just flip it over & hope for the best.

Has anyone else out there experienced the "backwards pick-up" this seller claims is very common?

Does anyone out there have a photo or diagram of a pick-up that is properly installed & running in a XR100?

Has anyone out there got English Kitaco instructions or had the Japanese ones fully translated? A factory mechanic acquantence translated part of ours but his English is as bad as our Japanese.

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I was looking at one of the Kitaco Inner rotor ignitions from two sellers on ebay but for some reason I've sat back and waited 'til I could find out more info from people like you who've ran them ! I'm glad I did now , thanks ! Whenever you fit a new ignition , you should use some type of tester (light bulb) or timing light to check that the timing is pretty close to the mark before attempting to start the bike as you've already found out . Check the timing by kicking the bike over with the spark plug out with the timing light inline and the lead grounded . When you try turning the pick-up over , I'd make sure that it's close enough this time. Sorry I can't help out much I'm just a learner at the moment when it comes to inner rotor ignitions and since they are fairly expensive by the time they get to OZ , I don't want to find out the hard way ! :banghead::banghead:

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If you're shopping eBay for one of these I strongly suggest sending me a PM so I can tell you who to avoid like the plague. They are clueless & if you press them to do their job they bail out on any kind of product support.

Thank you for the input but in many CDIs you can fry the module using a lightbulb to time them, but that is a safe way to time a point ignition.

I've been building/racing engines with CDI ignitions since the early '70s. It was installed exactly as the Kitaco diagragm shows, preliminarily set exactly like our other bike, & then the static timing was carefully re-checked with degree wheels, dial indicators, & a recording DMM to make sure we didn't screw up.

We're confident that the problem is the ignition itself, not the installation, & to prove that to this seller beyond any doubt we need to check/verify some claims this seller has made & in the process we hope to help anyone else that may stumble accross a similar problem.

So, has anyone out there got a clear picture of one in a bike that is known to work properly to prove what the proper pick-up orientation is?

Has anyone out there had the Kitaco instructions translated, expecially the 2nd page? We particularly want to know if Kitaco ever suggested reversing the pick-up.

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blipp

I will get a pic of mine set up for you.

It may be possible that the coil is back to front. Remember the rotor has the arrow backwards....... My Japanese is useless.

My kit was I think one of the very first tried out in here and I brought the early pre CDI version that came complete with stator, rotor, CDI and coil rather than the later CDI version.

I know minifig phil had a couple of hassles when he first fitted up his.

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ACS most of my problems turned out to be Jetting.

I can't believe how much flywheel weight changes jetting!

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minifig phil agreed

Faster reving from whatever will change the motors need in jetting etc

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Yes I can see that too ! Lag time in the carbys fuel delivery response would be highlighted due to the more rapid rise in rpm in much the same way as the spark advance rate would also need to be more rapid to match the rate of rpm rise ! The symptoms would be momentary leanout flatspots . Accelerator pump carbs should work well with inner rotor ignitions in that case . Fuel injection would be even better !

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Guys, sorry for the long dealy, we ran out of time last season for messing with this Kitaco POS & went back to the modded stock ignition to complete the year & start this one. We pulled the Kitaco out & are giving it a last try.

Not sure if it makes a differnce but our other bike runs the Kitaco coil, this one said to use the stock coil & change the cap for the Kitaco one.

And by the way, we use O2 sensors & can say this is definitely not a jetting issue although IF we can get this piece of crap Kitaco to run right I'm sure we will be making some changes in the main jet air bleed circuit at least.

We've wound this Kitaco around every which way & can't get it to run, the weird thing is the bike has never run better on the modded stock ignition so we know it can only be the Kitaco but we can't get any support on the thing.

Anybody ever gotten these Kitaco instructions translated yet?

ACS, I never got those pictures you promised, that might be a good restart.

Still got them?

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Did you get the bike to run with the Kitaco ignition?

I had to go up 10 sizes on the main just to get it to run and a few more to get it to run right.

You can be fooled by an O2 sensor if the jetting is WAY off.

What carb and jetting are you using?

The reason I'm wondering so much about the carb is because I thought when I set up mine that the ignition was at fault but it turned out it wasn't.

These ignitions are kick starter killers I would recomend you not use the kick start it at all, and push start the bike only.

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I will get those pics. 2 years ago I promised........

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would you please send pic's to me as well as this is a mod that I am thinking of doing.

why are these kick starter killers ? not enough timing variation ?

I'm headed off to take apart my clutch.

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Looking VERY much forward to hearing more from you guys.

This Kitaco kit has been the biggest mechanical debacle of my life. Can't get it to work worth a crap. It does kick back on the kick starter very hard (as if way too advanced, nevermind that I have it as retarded as possible - on both the backing plate and the pickup)

The bike I installed it in has been supplanted by another so I can ride one during the race schedule and work on the Kitaco ignition equipped one as time allows w/o causing me to miss races.

I'd like to understand more, but will try the pushstarting routine in the meantime, just to be safe.

I've never tried so many things w/o achieving at least some success.

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The reason it kicks back so hard is because there is no more weight in the flywheel to keep the momentum going and when it hits a little compression it wants to turn the other way. It has nothing to do with timing. And yes because of this it breaks kick start shafts fairly easy.

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Note the arrow on the rotor is backwards. The air gaps between the rotor and the pickup and coil must be minimal when you install it. If you dont have a feeler gauge use paper, it has to be that close so if the main bearing is shot or on the way out you can have problems. The bolt positions in these pics are good to get it going.

Kicking back can be minimised by limiting the advance a bit. I found with the Takegawa big bore big port head 36 degrees was best power, very rare kickback off dyno work.

I converted over the points motor and used the full kit including the Kitaco coil. phil from memory uses the other kit (yes there are two kits) that uses the stock coil. Correct me if I'm wrong phil.

For a XR80 points and CDI the setup is similar except the base plate.

The info about turning the pick up is crap as the pick up only goes on one way!

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Yes you use the stock coil on the kit made for already CDI motors.

Unlike the point conversion kit the CDI conversion doesn't come with a coil.

You probably can use the Stock CDI coil for the point kit if you don't want to use the supplied coil.

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Well... We now have English instructions for this ignition. They don't help much.

Kitaco themselves & Classic Honda [their USA distributor] both verbally say that you shouldn't kick start a bike with this ignition, push only, & Kitaco & Classic don't mention that fact in any sales info even though they both admitted being aware of the problem for many years.

They did not say they were working on a solution.

We spent a week going back & forth to the dyno to sort out all the new ignition & jetting issues the Kitaco caused us & I'm convinced that the Kitaco, out of the box, is real piece of crap.

I'm also convinced that the USA distributor of them is screwing up a lot of XR100 engines to make a profit, but that is just my experience.

The dyno indicated that the Kitaco does give more RPM, which makes sense since it has no rev limiter other than the engine grenading from what we could see, & an illusion of more power over other ignitions due to the odd ignition curve we suspect Kitaco borrowed from a weed whacker.

ACS you can flip the pick-up over in both kits we tried. No keying or anything.

MinifigPhil- We run several carbs on several bikes. The bike we tested it on was a known winner that runs a heavily modified/machined Mikuni Flatslide that outperforms any of the Keihins we've messed with.

I see Minifig has his fully retarded on the plate & the pick-up & that far off I'm surprised his runs at all. I'm thinking his flywheel is mis-cut, he has a twisted crank stub, or something odd. That would be roughly 40+ degrees retarded normally.

We turned up a trick little flywheel weight for the Kitaco & that helped the starting & low end but it sheared the kicker splines after roughly 10-15 starts when the timing was set for max dyno power.

The breakage is caused by a combination of too light a flywheel & uneccesarily advanced low RPM timing.

If you've got the inner rotor in your bike & hear a light knocking sound in the bottom end that is likely the too light flywheel failing to absorb the harmonics slapping the con rod & the timing chain around. It divots the con rod big pin caused a bad enough valvetrain chatter that it also chewed divots in hardface rockers.

We're working on another ignition now. Not an inner rotor, but a much smaller outer rotor & so far it seems promising. Custom curve so we can start the things.

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One pays a Japanese translation service to translate them like we had to.

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