HELP Cooling fliud in the cylinder !!!

[dertbik_dennis]

02'400EXC Rode bike Wednesday and seemed fine.I tried to ride this afternoon and could not get the bike started(never happen before). I changed the plug and while out I blew the thing out with the e-start. Seemed like coolant I put in new plug and still would not stay running. After a lot of kicking a did get the engine started and the white smoke and coolant leaking from the head pipes.What do you think?head gasket? cracked valve seat? It seems strange that there was no warning it ran fine when it was shut off.I just was told before I discovered this that my new 450 would be here in a few weeks! darn the bad luck....

[jeb]

Bummer timing. Sounds like a head gasket leak but you won't know until you get in there. Let us know what you find.

[Chris_C]

Dennis, I feel your pain x2 (times 2)

Jeb, You seem to be one of the most knowledgeable people, about the KTM's, on this site. I really need some help here.

I posted the topic "Water In Oil?" a while back and got some useful input, but some of it sounded like I didn't know much about working on bikes. I've rebuilt several (7) 4- stroke bikes and two 2-stroke bikes and every single one ran fine after the first attempt. They still do. I'm talking tranny work and all. What I'm trying to say is, I'm a shade tree mechanic, but I do think I handle a wrench pretty well.

I, like Dennis, had a perfectly running bike until suddenly the worlds of oil and coolant collided. I disassembled the top end and found that the head gasket looked like it wasn't making a good seal on the left side. There was no obvious break in the gasket, but the little bit of gasket material that normally adheres to each mating surface was absent on the left side. I looked for other possible sources of the leak, but found none. I reassembled the top end with new gaskets and/or gasket making material as per the owner's manual/other post advice. I did replace the water pump seals on the cam shaft with some help from my boss at work - he can be pretty cool when he wants to. Finished assembly this evening. Results,......

She started right up, ran great for about 1.5 minutes, heard a clunking sound, and she dies. About 1 minute into her running I started to see what looked like a little white smoke from the tail pipe, and a little cloudy color in the engine oil site glass. I thought I was being paranoid, so I continued to let her run for the 0.5 seconds before the aforementioned clunking sound. I thought, &%$#@!, at this point what do I have to loose. I hit the start button and she turns over fine, but will not start.

I drained the oil and coolant, opened a cold one, and sat down to ask you guys what you thought. Sorry for the long post, but I need some advice because I'm about to miss another ride if I can't figure this out. I would call my local dealer, but to date, they are total jerks and/or don't know squat.

I would really appreciate your input. From this site, I've found other dealers that are much more knowledgeable/helpful and willing to give a guy a break on some rather expensive parts. My local dealer doesn't.

Take Care,

Chris

[dstktmusa]

Chris,

if you are still finding coolant in the oil/combustion chamber after replacing the head gasket then you have to check the cylinderhead for cracks. I have seen when the RFS' overheat they CAN crack the cylinderhead. It will be a small crack visable to the naked eye around the valve seat or down into the ports.

Have you removed the spark plug and checked for coolant?

(RBFR)

[jeb]

I'm glad dstktmusa jumped in here. This is a new one on me and his suggestion sounds like the most feasable one, unfortunately. I'm not sure what the clunking noise is from, though. Looks like you'll have to tear it down again to take a look at the heads, valves, etc.

Did you put new cam bearings in while you were in there? Those can clunk when they go out but it wouldn't explain white smoke from the tailpipe. Did the WP seal leak from the weep hole?

[Chris_C]

dstktmusa,

I agree with your post, but I don't understand how it could have overheated. It only ran for 1 to 2 minutes and when I opened the radiator to check the fluid level it wasn't that hot. I didn't even need to use a rag to open the cap. If it is cracked I would suspect some kind of defect in the head. Nevertheless, I'm going to tear it down again tonight and check the head more carefully.

Jeb,

I didn't replace the bearings because the place that I ordered them from sent me the old style bearings with no seals. When I contacted them, they were unaware of the differences. They contacted KTM and KTM confirmed what I told the dealer. The bearings in the bike rolled smoothly and were labeled "Germany 6201 NTN" so I believe I got the good bearings.

No coolant came out of the weep hole either this time or when the engine originally acted up about a week ago. I believe the clunking sound was normal cam chain noise as the engine "coughed" before dying. The main difference between this failure and the original was the fact that this time the bike wouldn't start again. I suspect it's a fouled plug from coolant in the head.

I'll let you know what I find

[dstktmusa]

The clunking could be the auto decomp kicking in because the RPM's dropped low enough for it to activate. They tend to give off a tick or a clunk then die.

Whether or not the bike overheated when you warmed it up. I don't know. But if you still have coolant in the chamber, then the gasket or the head is the problem. Get that fixed first then lets see if you have an overheating problem.

let us know

[Chris_C]

Well I pulled the head and checked for cracks and flatness of the mating surfaces. Even under a magnifying lens I couldn't find any cracks near the valve seats or the various ports. I did find something else interesting, but I'm not sure if this could be causing the problem.

Besides the 4 big bolts that hold down the head and cylinder, there are 3 smaller bolts that screw up into the head from the cylinder. When I went to remove the one on the left side of the cylinder, coolant dripped out. When I looked closer I noticed a small hole that continued from the bolt threads toward the water jacket. There's no way the bolt could have pushed its way through to make that hole - unless someone accidently used the wrong bolt before. I still don't know if this could be the problem though.

I'm going to take the cylinder and head to a KTM dealer to have them check it out. Any suggestions? As I said before, I'm not real impressed with the closest KTM dealer.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Chris C ]

[dertbik_dennis]

First off I just read in the service manual about being sure of the correct position of the mentioned bolts or damage can occur.(ouch)

But getting back to my posting, I took the bike apart and found no cracks visable in the head ( I did not remove valves) I looked at the head gasket and the only thing I can see is the moist or almost swellen areas ,no breaks or missing gasket materail. I ordered a new head gasket and base gasket,water pump gasket, and ign. cover gasket. I guess I will put it back to gether and hope it takes care or the problem.( by the way, My dealer sponsors(partially)me and because of the bike being down he offered me a sx400 for my hare scamble (moose series)on sun. and I took first on a bike that I had never ridden before!!Now lets hope that the problem is fixed with the gaskets because round 4 of the parts unlimited series is sun at millville Mn, and I would love to take a first there!!

[jeb]

It's so odd that both of you are having the same kind of problem and neither can find anything visably wrong. Keep us posted about what you find and what fixes them, please.

Dennis,

I live about 30 miles from Millville but, since I don't MX at all, I won't be down there. Good luck in your races. Sounds like you have a good dealer.

[dstktmusa]

You must remove the valves to completely inspect the cylinderhead, valve guides and intake and exhaust ports. It's no fun removing the head more than once to fix this problem. The bolt that screws in under the waterpump cover should have a copper washer installed on it. It is not uncommon to have that hole protrude into the water jacket (mine does as well) it's the washer that keeps everything in place. If you cannot see any visable cracks then maybe you should have the head magnafluxed to make sure or take it to a KTM dealer for inspection and possible warranty????

let us know

(RBFR)

[Chris_C]

Kirk,

Yes it is. The service department really did good by me a few years back when I had the trouble with the '95 KTM. However, they don't look familiar so I don't know if they're the same. That comment about the cylinder and head off voiding any potential warranty didn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I can't speak very highly of the parts and sales guys though. They've given me some real grief over the years. I know what you mean about being willing to drive to find a good mechanic. I may end up having to do just that. I'd like to stay local though. We,ll see....

[dertbik_dennis]

Ok, Here is an update. All the gaskets came in the good news but,,,,all day I just kepted thinking that I just could not point to the problem for sure. I got a valve removal tool and I took them out of the head. on the first inspection the ports looked good, so I took a wire brush and polished them up and then I saw the bad news. The exhaust port has a crack below the valve seat about 1/2 long that is visable to the eye.So now I feel good to say that I found the problem and did not put the bike back together thinking it was a bad head gasketonly to take it apart again looking for answers.So I will call customer service at KTM in the morning then my dealer and get this new head shipped Fed-ex put the bike togther friday after work and head for Millville Sat. morning to race on Sunday. I do not like the last minute stuff but I am hoping that it will all work out. I will say one thing, If you ride a Ktm 400/525 do your self a BIG favor and put the fan on the bike. Don't think about it do it!!

[Chris_C]

dstktmusa,

I could not find any cracks, although I did not remove the valves or manaflux (sp?) either. I took your second suggestion and took it to my local dealer because the Service Manager said if I left the parts he would call KTM to see what they might know and whether this was a possible warranty job.

I hope I did the right thing because right off the bat one of the mechanics said there was no way it could be warrantied since the head and cylinder were removed. I told him that I had a '95 KTM with a seized motor in their shop and it was covered under the warranty, even though I had dissassembled it already. We'll see what happens.

[kirkab]

Chris C, Would that "Local KTM Dealer" happen to be Thousand Oaks Yamaha?

If so, please keep us posted on how it all works out and your treatment and the work done by them - as they are also my "local KTM dealer".

So far I have not had to have anyone but myself touch the bike - but I am only good for simple maintenance, and need to find a good shop for the more "involved" tasks. I am willing to drive and willing to pay more just to have the bike serviced right by someone who knows about the peculiarities of the KTM RFS.

Thanks, Kirk

[Chris_C]

Dennis,

I think that is what happened to mine as well. However, I am running with the fan kit, so what else could I have done?

Is your bike going to be covered under warranty? Is it possible that there are a few heads out there with too-thin material at the valve seats? At least two?

[jeb]

I've read of a couple of other folks having this problem but it's pretty unusual. I hope KTM stands behind you these. Make damn sure you PUSH your dealer to contact KTM USA about this. They're great if your dealer will work a little for you. Without your dealer's support, you're in a ditch, though.

[dertbik_dennis]

I am contacting KTM in the morning and I hope they will be interested in finding out what is causing the problem. I have had to 4 stroke yamahas before this and never any problems and I sold these bike to guys that I still ride with. The dealer checked on availabilty of the head today and it does not look good. will know more tomorrow hopefully. Keep you posted....

[Chris_C]

Well I made the HUGE mistake of taking the cylinder, head, and camshaft to my "local" dealer yesterday. Today I got the news that KTM will not cover it because the bike is out of warranty (30 days). I told the dealer I thought KTM would reconsider a case where a manufacturing defect was possible - IF the dealer went to bat for the customer. I told him that this shop went to bat for me about 5 years ago and KTM acknowledged the defect. KTM payed to fix the bike at no cost to me. It took 6 1/2 months, but at least it didn't cost me $1400.

When I got to the dealer to pick up the parts, the parts were sitting in pretty much the same place and in the same condition that I left them. I asked the dealer if they had looked at the parts at all and they said no. I asked them why they wanted me to leave the parts if they weren't going to look at them before contacting KTM. The Service Manager said that they wanted the parts there in case KTM approved the warranty work. That way, they could get started right away. (So apparently the dealer boiled down what I told them the day before and relayed that to KTM. Hell! I could have done that)

Anyway still trying to work with these guys I relayed the story of 5 years ago with my "out-of-warranty" KTM. I said that I was hoping that they would do the same. Blank stare - not the same guys as 5 years ago - I asked. When I told them that there may be a few manufacturing defects in these bikes because I've read and heard of a few others. They said "we haven't"... "... and KTM hasn't either", they're very reliable. I was starting to get a little irritated with their belligerence and/or ignorance. I may have started raising my voice a little thinking I might get through the "thickness". (Stupid, maybe immature I know, you had to be there.) They started raising their voices, apparently under the same disillusioned notion that this makes communication clearer. One of the mechanics, the same guy who gave me attitude when I brought in the parts "disassembled" said I should take my parts and call KTM myself. I said I planned to take the parts to a dealer who cared. At that point the Service Manager reiterated the sentiment of taking my parts and proceeded to kick the box of parts, spilling them onto the floor.

Shocked at the sudden escalation of the events, I gathered my parts and calmly told them I would contact KTM about the situation with my bike, and the situation with them.

When I got back home I called a dealer back east that I've been buying parts from and told him the situation. He asked me to send the parts to him and he would see what he could do. The parts are on their way.

[dstktmusa]

bummer, it doesn't sound like your dealer went to bat for you, or even wants your service......