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More BS from Doug Sutherland

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I just received a very Lengthy response from Doug Sutherland.

"Thank you for your comments regarding the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) on-going efforts to improve the rules governing access on federally granted trust lands. The department is in the early stages of a long public process to revise and update existing parts of the Washington Administrative Code (WAC) that pertain to the use of managed lands and roads. Unchanged since 1970, improved and updated WACs would provide for a safer and more enjoyable experience for people accessing and recreating on DNR-managed lands, while ensuring the department continue its primary and fiduciary responsibility to generate revenue for the state trust.

DNR's intent is to examine and propose improvements to WAC 332-52 and is working with the public, as well as other state agencies, to ensure the safety of the ever-increasing number of users while protecting the lands and resources under the department's stewardship.

The department manages more than 5 million acres of federally granted trust forest, agriculture, and state-owned aquatic, conservation and urban lands. Of these 5 million acres, approximately 2.2 million acres are forested trust lands managed by DNR. By law, state trust lands are managed to produce income for trust beneficiaries such as public schools, universities, prisons, state mental hospitals, community colleges, local services in many counties, and the state general fund. They are also managed to provide fish and wildlife habitat, as well as educational and recreational opportunities. Most of the recreation occurring on DNR managed lands takes place in forested trust lands.

Recognizing the importance of also allowing recreational opportunities on these lands, RCW 79.10.120 directs DNR to allow for multiple uses of trust lands when such uses are compatible with trust land management. The multitude of allowable uses includes: recreation areas, trails, education and scientific studies, special events, hunting and fishing, as well as the maintenance of scenic areas and historic sites.

With many people recreating on and utilizing DNR-managed lands in many different ways, RCW 43.12.065 ensures uses can be made compatible by giving the department the authority to adopt and enforce WACs pertaining to public use of state-owned lands. In accordance with the prescribed State Environmental Policy Act (SEPA) and Rulemaking processes, the department initiated a public scoping process in October of 2004, which consisted of eight public meetings throughout the state. In addition, an Advisory Committee was recently established with a broad range of citizen representatives and agency representatives, including: WDFW, IAC and State Parks.

Listening to comments received from the public scoping process and the Advisory Committee, the department is working to draft and update rule language, as well as potential alternatives, which allow for multiple uses and are compatible with the department's primary responsibilities. Consistent with SEPA, DNR will evaluate alternative draft rule language through an environmental impact statement (EIS). The EIS will address the protection of the environment, public safety and compliance with existing laws. The public will have an opportunity to review and comment on the proposed language and the draft EIS before anything becomes finalized. A draft EIS and rule language is anticipated to be ready for public review and comment in August of 2006. Adoption of final EIS and rule language is not anticipated until 2007.

As we continue with this extensive public process, updates and information are available on the department's website at:

http://www.dnr.wa.gov/htdocs/adm/comm/fs04_186.htm

http://www.dnr.wa.gov/htdocs/amp/sep...sp_summary.pdf

If you would like to be put on our mailing list to receive information regarding further opportunities to provide comments, please go to http://www.dnr.wa.gov. Click on SEPA under "Featured Sites" and go to the "Revision to Chapter 332-52 WAC". There will be a place to provide your contact information.

Although this message is responding to all who have sent messages to me, I want you to know I have read them all. To you, Dave Hiatt, I agree with Tommy Thompson. You really should express the whole story so your readers would know that the sky is not falling, that the recreation uses are secondary after the fiduciary responsibilities to the trusts, and that the lands are trust lands certainly not the "Kings Forest." These lands belong to the trusts, not the public, however as noted earlier, the public may use them. Further as previously noted, RCW 43.12.065 is the authority to update the WACs and no additional legislative direction is required.

Finally, two considerations for you all: 1) Threats do you no benefit in these determinations. Thoughtful suggestions to improve our uses of these lands do. 2) Some of you should re-read your messages before sending them, the language and spelling is terrible, and some although serious, are just really funny.

Please stay engaged in this process, as we work through all the various issues we must consider. If you have questions or additional comments please e-mail either me, or Margaret Barrette at Margaret.Barrette@wadnr.gov .

I truly thank you for your input.

Sincerely,

Doug Sutherland

Commissioner of Public Lands"

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That idiot won't be getting my vote ever again, and I've sent him several emails to let him know that. Of course, he never bothered to respond to mine, and I don't expect he will. Even if he did, I can see it would be a meaningless BS form letter with childish jabs about my spelling tagged onto the end of it.

thanks for posting this one Bill

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While the content of the whole e-mail disturbs me. It's the last few lines that really get my blood boiling. Mr. Sutherland seems to have an over inflated opinion of his of his own importance. Correct me if I'm wrong but is he trying to make us out to be a group of uneducated Hillbillies? "Finally, two considerations for you all: 1) Threats do you no benefit in these determinations. Thoughtful suggestions to improve our uses of these lands do. 2) Some of you should re-read your messages before sending them, the language and spelling is terrible, and some although serious, are just really funny." He seems to think that this movement is a big joke. I am looking forward to seeing how funny he thinks it is when we all band together in the next election and vote him out of a job.

BTW Drew I might be up for that ride Saturday. Are you riding with Mark? Let me know on the other board.

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I wouldn't doubt that Margeret sent that reply about the grammer! This is what I sent him............

Dear Mr. Sutherland,

DNR lands are the only lands that the people of this state have available to use excluding national and state forests or private lands. When you take away areas that we use for recreation, we are forced to overcrowd and overwear the remaining ones. When was the last time an ORV AREA was open or expanded? In the 14 years I've lived here, at least 3 have closed! Now in those years the population centers have doubled, the ORV community has multiplied even more than that, and the remaining areas are getting worn out and crowded? Hmmmm wonder why.

Your agency's reply on ORV issues just doesn't make sense relating to resourse impact. I don't know if you've ever ridden a trail bike, but game trails are indistinguishable from bike tracks in relation done to impact, compared to the damage done to terrain and vegetation by heavy forestry equipment. In the National Forests for instance, most bike trails use existing game trails.

My suspision is that most ORV problems are centerd on areas very near the parking or staging areas. These are the pitbike crowd that pop in and out of these areas to get a quick adrenalin high and probably the same ones who ride in your neighbors field or yard. We have them in my area too. These people need the little ORV areas to destroy, so if you could find some contaminated areas or such to place them, that would make us all happy. For us law/resourse abiding vocalists, we need more Tahuyas where we can take in a whole days ride, cover 50 miles of trail, and never once ride over the same piece of ground twice. That's how you prevent impact!

This quote is from the DNR website Mr. Sutherland. I think you might want to read it after the reply you gave Dave Hiatt, ESPECIALLY YOUR HIGHLIGHTED AREA!

"The DNR is one of the important state agencies which serve you; our role is to protect and manage many valuable assets that belong to you. For instance, you, the people of Washington, own more than 5 million acres of land - forests, farms, commercial properties and underwater lands - all of which are managed to provide benefits to you by our department.

Much of this land is dedicated to supporting public institutions like schools and universities. We manage it, selling products like timber and wheat, and last year earned $311 million dollars for you.

Our underwater lands are managed to provide access for you to the waters of the state - rivers, lakes, streams and Puget Sound. We also work to serve the continuation of navigation and commerce.

But managing your lands is only half of our story. We also protect other public resources that belong to you - fish, wildlife, water, etc. - while landowners go about their business. Two of our largest and most important responsibilities in resource protection are fire prevention and suppression and regulating forest practices (or timber harvest)."

Following on these pages will be more specific information about who we are and, what we do for you. Read on and enjoy!

Doug Sutherland

Commissioner of Public Lands

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Maybe we're too small of a group to generate much revenue but once I read that one of the primary responsibilities was to raise revenue I was a bit surprised that trails keep getting closed down. If private track owners can manage to make money letting people ride I don't see why the state can't do the same. I know most ORV users are used to some expense associated with their sport and unlike your average hiker is willing to pay a fee to ride. Honestly, although I wouldn't be jumping for joy about it if the fees were increased somehow but it kept trails open and allowed me to ride my bike I'd be fine with it. I wonder if that's a reasonable solution? Make enough money for them that they start to care about us? Considering what we all pay for our bikes paying an extra $100 a year (just throwing out numbers) to ride would be worth it to me, I have to pay that to ride a track for only three days. How many trail riders in WA are there? Would a $100 from each of us add up to a serious amount that they'd notice in their budget?

Is it possible that the answer is to start dealing with them like they're a business instead of the government?

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We already pay and we don't get the money going to our use, so that ain't gonna work. All that money is going to the Seirra club types. Now if they had a pay booth at the riding area like Thurston County Park used to do, I would be in for that. I only ride state land in the winter anyways when the snows close the National Park trails. No crowding problems there!

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Maybe we're too small of a group to generate much revenue but once I read that one of the primary responsibilities was to raise revenue I was a bit surprised that trails keep getting closed down. If private track owners can manage to make money letting people ride I don't see why the state can't do the same. I know most ORV users are used to some expense associated with their sport and unlike your average hiker is willing to pay a fee to ride. Honestly, although I wouldn't be jumping for joy about it if the fees were increased somehow but it kept trails open and allowed me to ride my bike I'd be fine with it. I wonder if that's a reasonable solution? Make enough money for them that they start to care about us? Considering what we all pay for our bikes paying an extra $100 a year (just throwing out numbers) to ride would be worth it to me, I have to pay that to ride a track for only three days. How many trail riders in WA are there? Would a $100 from each of us add up to a serious amount that they'd notice in their budget?

Is it possible that the answer is to start dealing with them like they're a business instead of the government?

We already are paying fees and they just went up (ORV licensing tabs). In this case there are even tax dollars being used above and beyond our tabs to make us believe these lands are somehow being kept in usable condition by the state for us.

I need to take a picture of the sign posted by the DNR bragging about what they have done for us at the entrance to the Green Dot Road System. The sign says "Your tax dollars at work". At present we can ride these roads but of recent days they have for experimental reasons closed down some of them. In other words a little chunk here, a little chunk there and pretty soon it's all gone to be used for things supposedly more profitable than we as a group are.

The sky is falling and the DNR and BLM may think or hope we the public don't notice it and won't notice it until it fully crushes us as a group.

Doug Sutherland's response is a position taken by the DNR's policy's. If you read the information on their site it becomes clear he did not make all this up personly. He quite often simply quotes from their official stand made known to the public on the site. We sat by never noticing what policy's have been made through the years until it finally effects us in a real way. Whatever happened to the idea that the Government was for the people, by the people and of the people. It would seem to me that we are "The Trust"! I didn't know the federal government was allowed to own land but then there is a lot I don't know.

Oh yeah, All this concern does on our part is provide them with some joke material to laugh at as they sit in their little conference rooms making light of us.

Never the less, we have no choice but to play on their field and deal with it according to their rules. Interestingly enough they are supposed to be us (our representatives). What happened to that?

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If you wish to be added to the mailing list to which Mr. Sutherland refers, the full link is: http://www.dnr.wa.gov/htdocs/amp/sepa/recreation/recreationwac.htm

However, I didn't see the "place to provide your contact information" that he mentioned. Instead, the following information is listed:

"If you would like to receive notifications of future actions related to this proposal, you may contact the SEPA Center at sepacenter@wadnr.gov with your name, mailing address and/or email address to be added to the distribution list."

Lastly, I encourage everyone to stay the course on the "high road" when tempted to respond to his final few paragraphs. We clearly have a golden opportunity to set examples of professionalism from which Mr. Sutherland can learn.

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Lastly, I encourage everyone to stay the course on the "high road" when tempted to respond to his final few paragraphs. We clearly have a golden opportunity to set examples of professionalism from which Mr. Sutherland can learn.

Wow, I had no idea this stuff was happening like this in WA. I grew up in White Salmon and rode on DNR managed land a great amount of time. Not only did we ride on it but we helped to maintain it whenever we saw irresponsible people abusing the land with trash, downed fences, gates, etc. by dontaing our own time to clean/fix the areas. I now live in Oregon City but ride/visit in WA regularly. I will help spread the word to my buddies that live in WA who don't have computer access or availability to information as quickly as this. One of them also has a father that works for the DNR in that area so I wonder if they are even aware of this.

I also agree with what valla8650 has said. If we are to get anywhere with the DNR we must make sure our responses are professional and well written. I'm sure Mr. Sutherland has a pretty high opinion of himself and will continue to ignore requests if they are threatening or written out of anger.

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What kind of snot-nosed punk response is that?

It's obvious they had a team of lawyer-monkeys come up with the entire body of that response, and that the bottom paragraph is the only part actually written by Sutherland himself. It's these sorts of cheap-shot jibes that clue the ORV-riding public in to the fact that these people aren't the slightest bit interested in our concerns; people who are genuinely interested in your concerns do not level cheap-shots at those who have taken time out of their busy lives to voice their opinion. Sutherland's condescending attitude is not acceptable for a person in his position.

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Just FYI, I know for a fact that the "other side" monitors TT. Don't say anything here you wouldn't be willing to say to someone's face - or anything you wish to keep secret from "other side".

DS is human and I have seen similar "snot-nosed" comments directed at him in emails we've sent him. Most of us have been guilty of childish jibes. Certainly I have.

Our best course is to be civil but unrelenting. I like that. A new signature line by cracky....

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Just FYI, I know for a fact that the "other side" monitors TT. Don't say anything here you wouldn't be willing to say to someone's face - or anything you wish to keep secret from "other side".

DS is human and I have seen similar "snot-nosed" comments directed at him in emails we've sent him. Most of us have been guilty of childish jibes. Certainly I have.

Our best course is to be civil but unrelenting. I like that. A new signature line by cracky....

I agree with you and everyone else who is saying we need to behave ourselves. Name calling is not profitable. We (pointing the finger at myself) need to be careful how we use our wit. :applause:

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I agree with you and everyone else who is saying we need to behave ourselves. Name calling is not profitable. We (pointing the finger at myself) need to be careful how we use our wit. :applause:

Agreed..... but to those monitoring and to DS. We are upset :bonk:! Our riding privileges are dissappearing at an alarming rate and unless we are heard now and the tides are reversed it's only inevitable that the State ORV community will eventually turn into renegades, riding where ever we can get away with it..... We are a self supporting society (ORV'ers), we maintain our trail systems by working trail cleaning up litter and so forth, we police our areas and promote responsible use, we provide a tax base to support our sport. I can guarantee you that as we are forced out of DNR lands you will see a reciprocal increase in litter, abandoned vehicles, resource damage, under aged drinking and all of the other things that will take place while no one (i.e., ORV'ers) is there watching or actually taking pride in the area :cry:

When will ORV enthusiasts start being perceived as what we actually are, honest tax paying citizens with families. I am a 39 yr. old Washington state native and started riding with my parents when I was 5. My son still rides with his grand parents and unless DS or other factors have their way, I plan on riding with my Grand kids!

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Agreed..... but to those monitoring and to DS. We are upset :bonk:! Our riding privileges are dissappearing at an alarming rate and unless we are heard now and the tides are reversed it's only inevitable that the State ORV community will eventually turn into renegades, riding where ever we can get away with it..... We are a self supporting society (ORV'ers), we maintain our trail systems by working trail cleaning up litter and so forth, we police our areas and promote responsible use, we provide a tax base to support our sport. I can guarantee you that as we are forced out of DNR lands you will see a reciprocal increase in litter, abandoned vehicles, resource damage, under aged drinking and all of the other things that will take place while no one (i.e., ORV'ers) is there watching or actually taking pride in the area :cry:

When will ORV enthusiasts start being perceived as what we actually are, honest tax paying citizens with families. I am a 39 yr. old Washington state native and started riding with my parents when I was 5. My son still rides with his grand parents and unless DS or other factors have their way, I plan on riding with my Grand kids!

Great points, don't forget about tweekers (meth heads) they drive the majority of crime in our state. Who else besides dirtbikers and other Orv users have the guts to confront tweekers. Once we are kicked out of the state lands it will be a tweeker free for all :applause: . What will the yuppie hikers do then? :cry:

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Agreed..... but to those monitoring and to DS. We are upset :bonk:! Our riding privileges are dissappearing at an alarming rate and unless we are heard now and the tides are reversed it's only inevitable that the State ORV community will eventually turn into renegades, riding where ever we can get away with it..... We are a self supporting society (ORV'ers), we maintain our trail systems by working trail cleaning up litter and so forth, we police our areas and promote responsible use, we provide a tax base to support our sport. I can guarantee you that as we are forced out of DNR lands you will see a reciprocal increase in litter, abandoned vehicles, resource damage, under aged drinking and all of the other things that will take place while no one (i.e., ORV'ers) is there watching or actually taking pride in the area :cry:

When will ORV enthusiasts start being perceived as what we actually are, honest tax paying citizens with families. I am a 39 yr. old Washington state native and started riding with my parents when I was 5. My son still rides with his grand parents and unless DS or other factors have their way, I plan on riding with my Grand kids!

Agreed and very good points. I am a 55 year old tax paying citizen who got into the sport late. I was 46 when I first started riding dirt bikes. Since then I have become a passionate rider who enjoys the beauty of our state from the seat of a dirt bike. And yes, as shocking as it may sound, I still am capable of enjoying an adrenaline rush. I hope they don't out law that too. :applause:

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Just FYI, I know for a fact that the "other side" monitors TT. Don't say anything here you wouldn't be willing to say to someone's face - or anything you wish to keep secret from "other side".

DS is human and I have seen similar "snot-nosed" comments directed at him in emails we've sent him. Most of us have been guilty of childish jibes. Certainly I have.

Our best course is to be civil but unrelenting. I like that. A new signature line by cracky....

I was simply saying that his comments were childish. My comments, however, weren't. Well, aside from the team of monkeys anyways :applause:

My point, which I have no problem with him or anybody else reading (or hearing in person, for that matter), was that a person in his position should be taking every comment, complaint, and question seriously. This man is basically a paid public servant, so fielding our comments and complaints in a professional manner is his JOB. If he can't peform that job without firing out childish comments about spelling, then he shouldn't be in that position.

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My boss had 30 years in at the DNR before coming to work for the University of Washington and also knows Doug personally, I don't know where he stands on recreational use on public lands, I'll put a bug in his ear anyway. He helped Doug get elected, so I don't know if it will help. I live in the center of DNR land and I hope it stays open for me to ride, especially since I just got back into ridding after 20 years without a dirt bike.

Deric

Forks WA

www.onrc.washington.edu

www.washington.edu

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I was simply saying that his comments were childish. My comments, however, weren't. Well, aside from the team of monkeys anyways :cry:

My point, which I have no problem with him or anybody else reading (or hearing in person, for that matter), was that a person in his position should be taking every comment, complaint, and question seriously. This man is basically a paid public servant, so fielding our comments and complaints in a professional manner is his JOB. If he can't peform that job without firing out childish comments about spelling, then he shouldn't be in that position.

We all feel your passion and understand but were just suggesting a little more tact in our comments is needed. I am guilty of letting my passion chose needlessly offensive words at times. So your not alone in this. But it is good when the level headed ones remind us to calm down, take step back, take a deep breath and JUMP ALL OVER THEM. :applause::cry::bonk::cry:

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Ha haha nice. Yeah it's tough, I just back into dirtbiking this year after 10 or 15 years - we quit riding when I was a kid after they shut down the Roslyn/Cle Elum coal pile areas - and it's a frustrating situation to see what little riding areas are left being systematically closed down. Pretty soon we're all going to be over at Moses Lake running into each other every weekend.

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