CA OHV - insurance required?

[tntmo]

In December a friend of mine was paralyzed in an ATV accident while riding Otay Truck Trail, a designated off-road area. We are in the military, and I am trying to help finish up a line of duty investigation that is required. The military is very picky about the way this is all filled out and it has been rejected three times already for small details.

One of the things that I am hung up on is finding proof that Off Highway Vehicles do not need insurance. I can't find anything that specifically states that you do or do not need insurance. I have found all the spark arrestor, green sticker, helmet....etc information but nothing on insurance.

Any help? I need to get this done so he can get his benefits.

[Beyond The Pale]

First the normal disclaimer. I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.

I don't think you will find anything that states that you don't need insurance. There just isn't anything that says you must have it. I assume that you are looking at the vehicle code. Look for the part of the code that states that insurance is required for street licensed vehicles. California law, including the vehicle code, can be found at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/ It's searchable too.

[WR450Guy]

As with most activities in CA, if it isn't codified, it isn't illegal or required. By insurance I suppose you mean health insurance. I don't know of any law that can force one to have health insurance, although private businesses can require it as a condition of use. For instance, a landowner could require it before letting you ride on his track. If it's required of a job, the employer usually provides it. As for liability, it makes sense to have it, but there is no requirement by law except for vehicles that are operated upon a public roadway. In a situation like this, not finding a law can almost always be construed as meaning there isn't one. I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once. ?

[bigbob 901]

it's a military catch 22. sorry your buddy is screwed by Uncle Sam.

[WR450Guy]

it's a military catch 22. sorry your buddy is screwed by Uncle Sam.

Yep, back in my jarhead days we were told we couldn't so much as get a sunburn or we'd be brought up on charges of damaging government property. ?

[nscmj3]

I don't think you will find anything that states that you don't need insurance. There just isn't anything that says you must have it.

He's exactly right...if it's not there, it' s not required/enforceable. Take lane splitting for example. Is it illegal? No. Is it safe? Depends. The California Vehicle Code does not address it, so it doesn't matter if you split traffic or not. The vehicle code likewise doesn't address the issue of insurance of OHV's, hence it is not required.

[tntmo]

As with most activities in CA, if it isn't codified, it isn't illegal or required. By insurance I suppose you mean health insurance.

Not health insurance, but liability or full coverage type vehicle insurance. I don't know if the fact that there isn't a law on the book is good enough. What a pain this is going to be.

[SoCal WR426]

My suggestion would be to contact your insurance company or agent and ask their opinion. Even though your question relates to your friend you are paying money to your company and you are a customer that they want to retain. They might not have the answer right in front of them but that is their profession and they should be able to direct you to someone with the answer. Good luck

[WR450Guy]

Not health insurance, but liability or full coverage type vehicle insurance. I don't know if the fact that there isn't a law on the book is good enough. What a pain this is going to be.

There is no requirement for an OHV to have liability insurance. In CA, street licensed vehicles are required to have minimum liability when operated on public roadways and the DMV makes sure you have it or they do not issue license tags. There is no such mechanism or requirement for an OHV unless, like dual sport bikes or certain types of dune buggies and 4by4s, it can be legally operated on a public roadway.

[re.ryder]

I believe that if a vehicle is licensed for road use, it must comply with road vehicle requirements including third party liability. If not licensed it is treated in similar manner to farm equipment and MAY be covered by personal liability insurance such as a homeowner's or business policy, just as is your tractor, hammer, or power saw.

If a licensed vehicle is used off road, it would seem that the required insurance would remain in effect.

I was once licensed as a casualty insurance agent, and the above information was accurate 30 years ago.

I recommend that you make contact with the motor vehicle department for up to date info. They have people on staff to answer such questions.

[Jim_bo]

You guys need to understand what a "line of duty" investigation is. It is an investigation to determine if the accident was due to some type of illegal activity. In theory, if the injury occurred while the military member was committing some illegal act (i.e. driving in violation of some vehicle code requiring insurance) then the military could deny paying for his medical expenses. Since this guy is paralyzed, he is obviously going to file a disability claim. A line of duty investigation could significantly sway the outcome of that claim. It is basically a way for the military to screw with a guy who is already suffering.

I see you are in San Diego. If I had to guess, I'd say you are Navy/Marine Corps. I know that Navy Region SW has recently had serious issue with injuries due to motorcycle use. It doesn't matter that he was on a quad, he will be lumped in. This was an issue that had flag (admiral level) attention for quite a while. It is a very sensitive issue for them. I know that COMNRSW would love nothing more than to tell all the sailors in NRSW that they are not allowed to ride motorcycles/atv's anymore. Your buddy could definitely be on their radar so that they can make an example out of him. He may be in much more dangerous waters than he realizes.

I don't know how you prove a negative. It sounds like your JAG is a dick! Or maybe your command had a hard-on for this guy before the accident?? Bottom line is... this guy needs representation. Have him contact the DAV (Disabled American Veterans) office NOW!!! They will ensure that he won't get screwed by some ******* with an axe to grind.

By the way... if you are his buddy... why are you doing the LOD investigation??? Also, what is your rank/rate and your buddy's rank/rate?

Jimbo

Retired Naval Officer

[tntmo]

You guys need to understand what a "line of duty" investigation is. It is an investigation to determine if the accident was due to some type of illegal activity. In theory, if the injury occurred while the military member was committing some illegal act (i.e. driving in violation of some vehicle code requiring insurance) then the military could deny paying for his medical expenses. Since this guy is paralyzed, he is obviously going to file a disability claim. A line of duty investigation could significantly sway the outcome of that claim. It is basically a way for the military to screw with a guy who is already suffering.

I see you are in San Diego. If I had to guess, I'd say you are Navy/Marine Corps. I know that Navy Region SW has recently had serious issue with injuries due to motorcycle use. It doesn't matter that he was on a quad, he will be lumped in. This was an issue that had flag (admiral level) attention for quite a while. It is a very sensitive issue for them. I know that COMNRSW would love nothing more than to tell all the sailors in NRSW that they are not allowed to ride motorcycles/atv's anymore. Your buddy could definitely be on their radar so that they can make an example out of him. He may be in much more dangerous waters than he realizes.

I don't know how you prove a negative. It sounds like your JAG is a dick! Or maybe your command had a hard-on for this guy before the accident?? Bottom line is... this guy needs representation. Have him contact the DAV (Disabled American Veterans) office NOW!!! They will ensure that he won't get screwed by some ******* with an axe to grind.

By the way... if you are his buddy... why are you doing the LOD investigation??? Also, what is your rank/rate and your buddy's rank/rate?

Jimbo

Retired Naval Officer

I'm not actually doing the LOD, I'm helping get some of the facts since I was there. We are both USN enlisted, I'm his supervisor. I don't think there is going to be any real issue with the investigation but it keeps getting rejected due to these details. This insurance thing, they also need a picture of the VIN and nobody seems to understand the off road laws. I keep getting asked what the speed limit was in the area we were. Of course there are no posted speed limits in an OHV area. Anyway, it's a real pain in the ass.

[Jim_bo]

Dude... I am telling you... don't take this lightly! I was being used by my CO as an advisor in interpreting all of the new instructions concerning motorcycles in the last year or so. These people are dangerous for a few reasons:

1) They are idiots. They know nothing about motorcycles, yet they make the rules that will end up screwing your buddy.

2) They will try to shove a square peg into a round hole. They will apply standards used for automobiles (hence the moronic question, "what was the speed limit?"). When everything doesn't fit, they will find that he was not injured in the line of duty and then he will be SCREWED!!

3) They have an agenda. CNRSW has a burr under his saddle about sailors and motorcycles. Some pinhead safety geek or some dumb-ass JAG will see this as an opportunity to score a brownie point with the Admiral if he brings your buddy's head on a platter. They find he was not in the line of duty and then the Admiral has made an example out of someone.

Don't be stupid and act like this is not a big deal. Maybe it isn't, but don't make that assumption. Talk to the DAV and explain to them what I have told you. If the DAV person you speak to doesn't think it is a big deal, contact a different office. It is free and those guys are there to help you.

If this guy is a friend to you at all, listen to what I am telling you. Don't you dare give me the opportunity to say "I told you so".

Jimbo

BTW.... who is doing the investigation? Is it a JAG or is it just some flunky Junior Officer? Or even worse, is it a civilian?

[PigPenKLX450]

I am a Insurance agent and there is no law that states you have to have any type liability coverage for a ATV or dirt bike or Sand rail or dune buggy for that matter. I dont think there is any thing that states that though. If I was you I would try and call your local DMV and or Local Police Department and just ask if there is a law or anything writen stateing they dont have to be insured I am sure that the police would know.

[PigPenKLX450]

I'm not actually doing the LOD, I'm helping get some of the facts since I was there. We are both USN enlisted, I'm his supervisor. I don't think there is going to be any real issue with the investigation but it keeps getting rejected due to these details. This insurance thing, they also need a picture of the VIN and nobody seems to understand the off road laws. I keep getting asked what the speed limit was in the area we were. Of course there are no posted speed limits in an OHV area. Anyway, it's a real pain in the ass.

you know there is a vin# on the bike Right? I wasnt sure by your last post and for the speed limit thing it is as fast as the conditions permit.

[Jim_bo]

...and for the speed limit thing it is as fast as the conditions permit.

DO NOT SAY THIS!!!! If the investigator thinks there is a codified speed limit that is as fast as the conditions permit, then your buddy was obviously violating that. If he were not, the he wouldn't have had the accident!

The investigator, the JAG office and everyone else involved in the is NOT your friend. They are NOT there to help you. They are conducting this investigation for the interests of the Government. Once the investigation is over and he gets his LOD statement, then you can relax. Until then, be cautious of what you say.

Jimbo

[rtdk]

try calling this guys and see if they can help you aswer some of your questions. http://www.foremost.com/products/OFFROAD/