Carb - Public Workshop: Off-highway Recreational Vehicles

[DaveJ]

Click Here

or

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/orrec/orrec.htm

[MotoRick]

Guys, pardon me being a newbie and all, but this thread is important. Read this document above. Apparently, from what I read, CARB has on its agenda forcing OHVs to meet the same standards for evaporative emissions that street motorcycles and cars now do. What does that mean to us? That means no more plastic gas tanks; no more gas tanks, carbs or crankcases vented to the atmosphere; an increase in the amount of plumbing and other required devices on our bikes; and increased costs to and from manufacturers. This is a serious threat to the OHV community. And they want it implemented by 2008 model year.

Have you bought a gas jug lately? You can thank CARB for doing away with simple gas jug spouts. They did this to supposedly cut down on evaporative emissions from gas jugs. How bad do you think THAT problem was? It's the same problem that led to the adoption of vapor recovery systems on all CA gas pumps. A problem so big that neither EPA nor any other state requires their use. Thanks CARB.

Read a little further and you'll see that CARB wants to adjust the red sticker season for some OHV areas based on 2002-2004 atmospheric measurements. While you might be tempted to think that they may shorten the ban seasons for some areas, consider this: CARB is all about using any means possible to curb emissions, even if those means or gains are questionable. The likelihood is that they will be asking to extend the ban seasons in some areas, not shorten them. The example of Hungry Valley and LPNF was given with an explanation that the overlap of their seasons needs to be adjusted so that they match. Given CARB's history of anti-OHV legislation, the reality is that the riding area with the more liberal season will be shortened to match the one with the more restrictive season. That's CARB's idea of alignment. This could mean Hungry Valley SVRA (aka Gorman) will have an even shorter riding season for red sticker bikes. ?

We need to be at this meeting and make our voices heard. I'll be there, will you? ?

[JSanfilippo]

read my sig

[theclone]

mind if I use that one, too? Maybe we can start a trend.

[coffee]

I think this is important too!

El Monte CA - so cal.

I have been doing the nor cal meetings - anyone in So cal want to go?

Whatever input you give them is recorded forever it seems.

And you can be sure people who think differently than we do will be there getting their opinions in the record books.

True story - in our town they had workshop meetings for a while regarding a new zoning ordinance. 3 people showed up to the meetings - those 3 people for all intensive purposes wrote the new zoning ordinance! Result? people are having to sell trailers, antique cars, RVs, etc because those 3 people didn't think they 'looked nice'.

One voice DOES make a difference - if nothing else it gives ammunition to someone on the carb board that might have common sense.

Someone down there - please go to this.

[theclone]

I think this is important too!

El Monte CA - so cal.

I have been doing the nor cal meetings - anyone in So cal want to go?

Whatever input you give them is recorded forever it seems.

And you can be sure people who think differently than we do will be there getting their opinions in the record books.

True story - in our town they had workshop meetings for a while regarding a new zoning ordinance. 3 people showed up to the meetings - those 3 people for all intensive purposes wrote the new zoning ordinance! Result? people are having to sell trailers, antique cars, RVs, etc because those 3 people didn't think they 'looked nice'.

One voice DOES make a difference - if nothing else it gives ammunition to someone on the carb board that might have common sense.

Someone down there - please go to this.

If I wasn't just a 17 year old kind I would be there. C'mon people, go!

[DaveJ]

It's probably best to let OHV users know that public opinion does not go over very well with CARB. Sorry, but it's a reality.

In fact, it's important to understand that showing up in numbers has little or no effect on anything. That is, unless you have something to add that could really make a difference. Ie, facts and real solutions that work for EVERYONE, (not likely).

Governing bodies will do what is in the best interest of the majority, or themselves, long before they allow a crowd to take control. Hence the current situation of the Riverside matter in which they spoke nicely out of one side their mouths, only to go out and do what they wanted.

In other words, the only real course of action is fighting the law using the law. With all due respects, I really wish some of the OHV coalitions would learn this and take a more sophisticated approach in managing OHV rights.

[MotoRick]

Dave, while I agree with much of what you said, I disagree that we shouldn't be at the meetings. If nothing else, it sends the message to these beauracrats that they do NOT operate in private. We are here and we're watching. Having some level of oversight is important in reminding them that the riding public cares, even if we are a small percentage of the general public.

[DaveJ]

Dave, while I agree with much of what you said, I disagree that we shouldn't be at the meetings. If nothing else, it sends the message to these beauracrats that they do NOT operate in private. We are here and we're watching. Having some level of oversight is important in reminding them that the riding public cares, even if we are a small percentage of the general public.

Hey Rick,

Sorry about that, I didn't mean to shut anybody down. My issue is that if were going to be successful against the authority of CARB, it's going to take a very logical approach, which is seldom present during an unorganized open public forum.

They are very aware of the number of OHV users in California. They are also aware that it's a big problem. In other words, they have to solve this issue one way or another and part of that solution is not granting more access or liberties to OHV users.

The solution is technology, and CARB needs to stay focused on implementing and promoting that in the most reasonable and cost effective manner. That's the message that we need to carry.

[Davet916]

These people have their own agenda and are disconnected from the rest of the world. They feel they can operate with impunity and that their mission has been ordained by a higher authority. Some are only trying to make brownie points so they can get up the bureaucratic ladder. It is just statism.

We could send them a message by finding out who some of these nitwits are and what they do. Then follow them home and post their addresses on the internet for all to see. Maybe they'll dummy up when they find they've lost their anonymity. Roaches like the dark just as bad cops do. Sending them emails, directly to their desk, not the department, could let them know the light of day is upon them.

The bottom line is that these people were never voted into their position but somehow are able to run aspects of our lives. We need to take our lives back and send them on their way. It's easy enough to tell them: "We know who you are, what you're doing and why. It's not OK and you can stop NOW."

When such a statement is received at the office, it's ignored. When it's stuck on the door of their residence or placed in their mailbox, it isn't.

It is a plain and simple truth that some people can not handle power and quickly become tyrants. They need to be told "NO".

Dave

[MotoRick]

Davet, please refrain from making such comments in public. Threats and intimidation do not work well and only succeed in validating the stereotype that those who oppose us trot out regularly to smear us as a group. What you are advocating could lead to some radical extremist causing injury to one of our opponents and that would do more harm to us collectively than anything a single greenie could do on their own. We need to fight using the same tools that they use against us. We need to do it legally and responsibly. Calling for widespread intimidation of public officials is not the answer. ?

[plking]

Have you bought a gas jug lately? You can thank CARB for doing away with simple gas jug spouts.

I have and I rather like the new system on mine. It reduces spills on my bike and once I understood the operation, it is very easy to use.

I don't diasgree with you points in total but these sorts of devices to me are good for all of us, sort of like cat converters on cars. Now that the EFI and emissions systems have evolved, cats are really not a big deal and filter out tons of emissions. The new vette has 400 horsepower, gets over 20 mpg and has low emissions. I can live in this kind of world.

Just a counterpoint to say that sometimes you have to have an open mind and change isn't necessarily bad, just different.

[Weeeeee]

We need to fight using the same tools that they use against us. We need to do it legally and responsibly.

I think thats part of the problem. We aren't using the same tools as the enviromentalists. If they want an area closed, they will find some small plant, or bug and sue if that area doesn't get closed. They don't like logging, so they put spikes in the trees with the sole purpose of hurting loggers. They don't like human encroachment into wilderness areas, so they burn down millions of dollars of under construction buildings. But you think sending a letter to someone about protecting offroad rights would be crossing a line? ?

[DaveJ]

I think thats part of the problem. We aren't using the same tools as the enviromentalists. If they want an area closed, they will find some small plant, or bug and sue if that area doesn't get closed. They don't like logging, so they put spikes in the trees with the sole purpose of hurting loggers. They don't like human encroachment into wilderness areas, so they burn down millions of dollars of under construction buildings. But you think sending a letter to someone about protecting offroad rights would be crossing a line? ?

Umm...the California Air Resource Board is not a group of environmentalist. They are in no way connected to anyone that would put spikes in trees and the like. Ironically, they are here to ultimately help us both with cleaner air and to better position us against radical and uneducated environmentalist.

plking - good points. Thanks for the input. I just hope that the moto manufactures can get us to where the auto guys have.

[MotoRick]

Just a counterpoint to say that sometimes you have to have an open mind and change isn't necessarily bad, just different.

I have an open mind and I'm not adverse to change, but what CARB is doing is picking on the least of the problem simply because we can't fight back. Millions of tons of pollutants are spewed into the atmosphere daily, but CARB won't or can't go after the heavy polluters for one reason or another. Instead of phasing these minor improvements in over a period, they make unilateral decisions that force undue inconvenience and expense onto the public. I have quite a few gas jugs. I can no longer buy replacement nozzles for them because they've been outlawed in CA. Unless I'm willing to buy new jugs or convert to the new style nozzle, I'm screwed. I'm glad the new nozzle design works for you. I have one jug with it and it is a pain, especially when I use it on my motorhome or truck. It's short, it takes longer to empty, and it sticks up when not in use. All for what, a minimal (if any) impact on the amount of evaporative emissions generated daily. That's not progress, that's coersion.

[MotoRick]

I think thats part of the problem. We aren't using the same tools as the enviromentalists. If they want an area closed, they will find some small plant, or bug and sue if that area doesn't get closed. They don't like logging, so they put spikes in the trees with the sole purpose of hurting loggers. They don't like human encroachment into wilderness areas, so they burn down millions of dollars of under construction buildings. But you think sending a letter to someone about protecting offroad rights would be crossing a line? ?

Showing up on someone's home doorstep to complain about something they do in their job is definitely crossing the line. The only purpose of such an act is to say, "Hey, watch what you do because I know where you live." I'm all for letters and protests, but when you start invading the privacy of public officials, you negate any substance in your message. All that person is going to hear is the implied threat to their family and home.

[MotoRick]

Umm...the California Air Resource Board is not a group of environmentalist. They are in no way connected to anyone that would put spikes in trees and the like. Ironically, they are here to ultimately help us both with cleaner air and to better position us against radical and uneducated environmentalist.

No, but those groups certainly have CARB's ears.

I just hope that the moto manufactures can get us to where the auto guys have.

So do I, but as small as the emission problem is with OHVs, it should be addressed in a fair timetable. One that doesn't force an undue burden on manufacturers and consumers. I'm not saying CARB doesn't serve a valid purpose. I'm saying that their agenda needs to be fair and balanced. In the case of OHV users, they have shown themselves not to be either. The two-tier system (EPA and CARB certification) in CA is prohibitively restrictive, and in many cases, unwarranted.

[Heavy_G]

The solution is technology, and CARB needs to stay focused on implementing and promoting that in the most reasonable and cost effective manner. That's the message that we need to carry.

Here's one answer: Fuel Cell Bikes - Quite, 100% pollution free,

Fuel cells make electricity from hydrogen and oxygen creating water.

Check out this site if you haven't already

http://www.envbike.com/

I think this will ultimately be what we all ride (though maybe not in my lifetime)

[matt113]

the only problem i have with carb is that they have the authority to dictate what we can do soley based on their opinion.. that just ticks me off

[Davet916]

So, MotoRick,

What steps do you think we should take to defend ourselves against these unelected, appointed, bureaucrats? We can't vote them out of office. We can't recall them. We don't even know if these folks are qualified to make the decisions that effect our lives. The fact that they are mandating changes to such a minority of vehicles and people is very telling. There are much bigger fish for them to go after but they don't. Why not?

I suppose you would have been against the pastors in the churches advocating rebellion in 1775 or the articles printed by Ben Franklin too. It is far too late for us to worry about what the other side thinks. They already have their opinion and agenda and they don't care about us, our hobbies, or our issues. We have fun enjoying the great outdoors and they hate us for it. The level of confront I spoke of is not for everyone. It does call for doing something fairly radical compared to calling an attorney. There still are people in this world who are willing to go toe to toe with someone else. That does not make them wrong does it?

Lastly, MotoRick, this is America, we have rights. Free speech is one of them. If the moderator has a problem with what I posted, OK. I don't play by the rule of 'don't offend anyone' anymore. We are being attacked on multiple sides by lying, cheating, manipulative and dishonest groups. What 'same rules and tools' do you suppose we should use to fight back?

Dave