theDogger

DIY 04 450 Suspension Re-Valve!

2,254 posts in this topic

Its not that I'm lazy. It just that I don't want to be micro-manager. Letting people do what they specialize in gives me more time to do what I specialize in. Everything comes down to time & money. If your time is valuable ,as is everybodies these days, then why not utilize some time saving things. It is one thing to learn just for the knowledge of it or that you may try to make a little extra cash on the side but I don't see the benefit of spending all those hrs learning just to do every bike you personally own. In off road racing the engines, trans, & shocks all go to the appropriate shop. If the prep shop tried to do all these things then there would be no time for racing. I'm not trying to disagree with you I'm just giving you my 2 cents.

Fair enough.....

Maybe a stupid question but... how did you find the recipe for the shim stack- is this something that one can come up with himself. Is there a sort of formula that you use to achieve what you want. This is a tremendous post Dogger and you make it seem like it is not the magic that you need to send away for like I did. I doubt I will send my suspension again. Now I just need to know where to get the info. so that I can taylor the stacks to what I want to do (plusher on top with the same control I now enjoy from the revalve).

I was helped by one of the board members. If he wishes to ID himself then I will let him do so. But he help guide me and explain the secret formula if you will. What he has taught me I can not ever repay him for...though I wish I could!!!!I bribed him w/ hookers and beer and he accepted none. He has become a great confidant and friend....Thanks again!!!!

But the best thing to do is if you want to tune you own stacks....1st you need you OEM stack number to compare to. Since yours has been re-valved www.suspensionnetwork.com can help here. But yours may vary depending on the production date.

Once you have your OEM stack. Pull your re-valve apart one side first so if you screw up you have another to compare it to. Then record the stack numbers. You will need a digital caliper to measure the shims. Once you have that you can look at it and the OEM stack and see what changes were made. From there you will be able to make some educated guesses of what might work.

Obvious for my setup I am not normal size but for example the reversal of the base valve. taking every other one out will give it some plushness and then it starts to get firm quick. The biggest improvement I would have to say is that the forks are plush but stay up in the stroke. thanks to add a shim to the mid-valve.

I am still getting use to the new setup and it does feel different. It is weird because I set the rear sag at 105mm and I am just not use to the rear riding low like that but my straight line stability threw whoops is awesome. In corners it sits and rails nicely.

I am also still getting back into riding shape so right now my arms are shot after 2 laps....I have yet to adj. the clicker from the starting positions of 10 out on everything and 2 turns on the HSC. The shock may need a few clicks on the LSC and REB.

I do know this.....that I went to a track at a friends house here and it was basically a 1.5 mile SX track. I got tired quick and came up short and was thinking the worst and the suspension just soaked it up. I really did not notice it much at all other than I thought that I was going down....it has been a great learning exp. and I can say that I will never send my suspension out again

So if I can help I will....here is a link to my excel spread sheet with all the shiming info.

Excel Shims Stack

thanks

theDogger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since this made it as a sticky give me a little bit and I will make a complete pdf of this tread with more complete info. and pics.

theDogger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Its not that I'me lazy. It just that I don't want to be micro-manager. Letting people do what they specialize in gives me more time to do what I specialize in. Everything comes down to time & money. If your time is valuable ,as is everybodies these days, then why not utilize some time saving things. It is one thing to learn just for the knowledge of it or that you may try to make a little extra cash on the side but I don't see the benefit of spending all those hrs learning just to do every bike you personally own. In off road racing the engines, trans, & shocks all go to the appropriate shop. If the prep shop tried to do all these things then there would be no time for racing. I'm not trying to disagree with you I'm just giving you my 2cents.

....what suspension company do you work for? maybe some people like to tinker with their bikes along with riding them..im not much of a tinkerer myself but i do like to read things like this that show how to work on your bike, thanks to this thread i will be revalving a bike im getting shortly, although im going to be returning the re-valve suspension to the 06' valving:)

Who are you to say its not worth the time? he's obviously spent a few nights learning it and im sure he could probably do it all himself in short time. oh yea..no shit in offroad pro racing everything goes to a seperate shop..99.9% of us here dont have that luxury

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool.And yes it's not that hard to do youself at home and you dont need a lot of special tools.I told someone that I could have my shock off and apart in 45 minutes max no prob and they thought I was crazy.Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For got to post this.....the following is of the base valve dissembled. At this point you can swap the Pressure Spring or the Floating pistons. It is real easy to do.

Soften the compression all the way.

Put the Base Valve in a soft vice and clamp it. You will need a 13mm open end wrench that has been ground thin so you can access the lock nut.

Once the lock nut is loosened compress the Pressure Spring and you will see a boss at the base of the low speed valve. Being careful take a pair of channel locks and loose the low speed valve. Make sure that you do not grip to high on the boss or you can scar some of the shims just above.

Once loosened you can then by hand separate the parts. Be careful the compression needle runs the length of the Low Speed Valve and has a small o-ring at the bottom and will give a little resistance when being seperated. At this point you can swap your Pressure Spring and/or Floating piston.

Remember that there is a seal in the floating piston that wears out to. So check it. Mine was leaking on the right leg. Here is how I checked it. I put everyting back together and purged it. Then With the inner tube in a soft vice I stroked the rod up and down a few times then drained all the excess oil out of the spring chamber.

It will bleed normal and the rod will return as if there is no air in the damper.

Remove it from the vice and stand it up rod end down and leave it sit like this . After about 20 min the rod started to retract into the upper damper tube. Also I checked the spring chamber and there was oil in it. So the seal in the floating piston was bad.

Best just calling a suspension shop and ording 2 new seals. They are kinda tuff to replace. The seal is just not rubber there is a metal ring inside the rubber.

Put it back together in reverse order but be careful not to over tighten the low speed valve it is a very soft aluminum and will mushroom. Tighten it and then lock it down w/ the lock nut.

base_valve1.jpg

The top Base Valve has the Kashima Piston. I chose not to change the Pressure Spring. The Kashima Piston will not make a work of difference but yet again 1+1=3 small changes add up!

base_valve2.jpg

This is the FC Kashima Floating piston next to the OEM. This is really no difference other thanthe Kashima Coating.

kashima1.jpg

kashima2.jpg

Just take you time and make sure to keep things clean :thumbsup:

I am still woring on a complete Showa TC Manual that will be around 50-60 pages with pics and instructions. Stay tuned!

theDogger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice work and a really great post..... :thumbsup:

Although, I would recommend losing the shims (they serve no value) underneath the pivot shim of the compression stack as it appears you could use more thread engagement on the shock nut.

I call this nut the "Jesus Nut" in reference to my years I spent jumping out of aircraft and helicopters in the 82ND Airborne. The mechanics always used this name to address the large nut that holds the rotor on the UH-10. They jokingly said that if this nuts departs you'll be talking to Jesus!

Although drastic but hopefully with much less dire results will happen if the shock nut comes off and your rebound damping goes from 900# to zero. And the bike spits you over the bars.

Take Care, John

peen.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice work and a really great post..... :thumbsup:

Although, I would recommend losing the shims (they serve no value) underneath the pivot shim of the compression stack as it appears you could use more thread engagement on the shock nut.

I call this nut the "Jesus Nut" in reference to my years I spent jumping out of aircraft and helicopters in the 82ND Airborne. The mechanics always used this name to address the large nut that holds the rotor on the UH-10. They jokingly said that if this nuts departs you'll be talking to Jesus!

Although drastic but hopefully with much less dire results will happen if the shock nut comes off and your rebound damping goes from 900# to zero. And the bike spits you over the bars.

Take Care, John

John I here ya and understand...but in that photo the nut was just spun on by hand for the picture. When I was ready to install the nut was flush with the top.

John correct me if I am wrong....the reason I hour glassed the stack like that was to raise the stack up a little and give it a tad more deflection and on the base valves to avoid the need for spacers at the top. I do realize that everything below the pivot shim is dead. I would love to hear some more input from ya...

So far I am very happy with the results the 1/4-1/2 of the stroke is nice and plush and then as it gets deeper into the stroke it get stiff quick. The forks are the same and they stay up in the stroke nicely

Just have some small fine tuning left. Had to replace a floating piston seal that went bad on one of the forks.

theDogger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dogger,

I'm guessing what you are referring to as "float" probably refers to as total shim deflection..?

Even with the pivot shim against the top out plate, the face shims will never hit the top out plate. Especially with the large port stock piston, shim deflection is minimal.

The rebound damping that you built will still be too fast. I would recommend only 1ea. 25.1 for the transition and a total of 10ea. 40.2 face shims and use a 24mm pivot instead of a 26mm.

Also. I'm concerned that the 6.4 shock spring is too light for your weight. Get a good static sag/ race sag check and get back to us with the numbers....which might account for the shock feeling good initially then getting too stiff. You might be falling through the spring travel too quickly..

Take Care, John

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dogger,

I'm guessing what you are referring to as "float" probably refers to as total shim deflection..?

Even with the pivot shim against the top out plate, the face shims will never hit the top out plate. Especially with the large port stock piston, shim deflection is minimal.

The rebound damping that you built will still be too fast. I would recommend only 1ea. 25.1 for the transition and a total of 10ea. 40.2 face shims and use a 24mm pivot instead of a 26mm.

Also. I'm concerned that the 6.4 shock spring is too light for your weight. Get a good static sag/ race sag check and get back to us with the numbers....which might account for the shock feeling good initially then getting too stiff. You might be falling through the spring travel too quickly..

Take Care, John

I'm guessing what you are referring to as "float" probably refers to as total shim deflection..?

Yes deflection...sorry

Ok my sag numbers for the shock are as follows(measured cold)

I have lost some weight but do not think that I can get much lighter...down to 270 at 11% body fat....migth be able to get to 265....

Free Sag:600mm

Race Sag:494mm = 106mm

Static Sag:568 = 32mm

So for the LSR you are suggesting

10-40 x.20

1 -24 x .15 pivot

So to fit that I would have to drop the hour glass just to add the 5 more 40x.20.

Wow that just seems like too much....what effect will going from a 26 to a 24 have?

theDogger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dogger

The addition of the 24mm pivot will have more effect than you can imagine. I'll post some results later today.....

Also your shock bleed procedure is leaving out a couple of important steps.

When you push the seal into the body, you are actually overfilling the shock, the excess oil has to go somewhere, this results in the bladder being compressed and reducing the amount of nitrogen.

You need to do a final bleed with 2 to 3 psi charge to the bladder while you bleed the excess oil out of the comp adjuster. This will ensure that the bladder is inflated to it's full size. Otherwise you run the risk of running the shock overfilled with fluid and reducing the amount of nitrogen, which will result in a higher spike of gas presure when the shock goes through its' travel. This increased nose pressure on the shock shaft can lead to harshness.

Those sag numbers look good, double check to make sure. Have someone hold the front of the bike while you sit on the bike and someone else do the measuring.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dogger

The addition of the 24mm pivot will have more effect than you can imagine. I'll post some results later today.....

Also your shock bleed procedure is leaving out a couple of important steps.

When you push the seal into the body, you are actually overfilling the shock, the excess oil has to go somewhere, this results in the bladder being compressed and reducing the amount of nitrogen.

You need to do a final bleed with 2 to 3 psi charge to the bladder while you bleed the excess oil out of the comp adjuster. This will ensure that the bladder is inflated to it's full size. Otherwise you run the risk of running the shock overfilled with fluid and reducing the amount of nitrogen, which will result in a higher spike of gas presure when the shock goes through its' travel. This increased nose pressure on the shock shaft can lead to harshness.

Those sag numbers look good, double check to make sure. Have someone hold the front of the bike while you sit on the bike and someone else do the measuring.

John

John,

Is there anyway to ensure that the bladder did not compress...

One thing that I did not include in the bleed was that after I bled it I did mount the shock in the vice and remove the compression adjuster and had some air bubbles.....Also if the bladder compressed would you still be able to get all the nirto in. I had 165 psi added...I would assume that if the bladder was compressed and the shock body over filled that I would not be able to get the right amount of pressure?

theDogger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dogger,

You would be able to attain the correct pressure but not the correct volume of nitrogen.

Removing the comp adjuster for the final bleed is fine, we just a couple of psi of nitro to ensure the bladder is inflated to the full size.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So is there any way of checking this other than re-purging the shock?

theDogger

The way youd go about it would be to dump the charge, loosen the compression adjuster, inflate the bladder to 3psi and allow it to push any excess oil out, retighten the adjuster and then charge the bladder to full pressure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing. Im at loss how using a Kashima coating on the IC piston would/could benefit friction. The thing has its own linear bearings on it, and an o ring. The Kashima coating doesnt actually ride anywhere there is a friction surface. I can see it on the damper rod, or fork tubes, or inside the sliders, but on that particular part...I dont get it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dogger

Here are the shock dyno graphs between the two shock builds. The only change was the addition of 5ea 40.2 face shims and a 24mm pivot. At almost 20 in/sec. of shaft speed this produces about a 10% increase in rebound damping.

John

Dgg shck.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So John...how would that 10% difference translate into the butt dyno? What would be the benefit?

Right now the shock feels really good.....it doesn't wallow....The bike is level and predictable when jumping. I would assume that if more rebound was needed that there would be a tendancy for the rear end to pogo or kick up especially if you were a slower rider.

I could see how more rebound would be neccessary.

Can you explaine you method to madness alittle more?

theDogger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fair enough.....

I was helped by one of the board members. If he wishes to ID himself then I will let him do so. But he help guide me and explain the secret formula. What he has taught me I can not ever repay him for...though I wish I could!!!!I bribed him w/ hooks and beer and he accepted none. He has become a great confidant and friend....Thanks again!!!!

But the best thing to do is if you want to tune you own stacks....1st you need you OEM stack number to compare to. Since yours has been re-valved www.suspensionnetwork.com can help here. But yours may vary depending on the production date.

Once you have your OEM stack. Pull your re-valve apart one side first so if you screw up you have another to compare it to. Then record the stack numbers. You will need a digital caliper to measure the shims. Once you have that you can look at it and the OEM stack and see what changes were made. From there you will be able to make some educated guesses of what might work.

Obvious for my setup I am not normal size but for example the reversal of the base valve. taking every other one out will give it some plushness and then it starts to get firm quick. The biggest improvement I would have to say is that the forks are plush but stay up in the stroke. thanks to add a shim to the mid-valve.

I am still getting use to the new setup and it does feel different. It is weird because I set the rear sag at 105mm and I am just not use to the rear riding low like that but my straight line stability threw whoops is awesome. In corners it sits and rails nicely.

I am also still getting back into riding shape so right now my arms are shot after 2 laps....I have yet to adj. the clicker from the starting positions of 10 out on everything and 2 turns on the HSC. The shock may need a few clicks on the LSC and REB.

I do know this.....that I went to a track at a friends house here and it was basically a 1.5 mile SX track. I got tired quick and came up short and was thinking the worst and the suspension just soaked it up. I really did not notice it much at all other than I thought that I was going down....it has been a great learning exp. and I can say that I willnever send my suspension out again

So if I can help I will....here is a link to my excel spread sheet with all the shiming info.

Excel Shims Stack

thanks

theDogger

i gotta tell ya , old Dogger is a good listener and he tries real hard and is learning alot !.. :thumbsup:

i gave him the valving spec's and guided him in through this endeavor.

he learned very quickly ( as most guys that race would )------i try to show guys that their suspension is really one of the easiest components on the bike that needs to be dialed just like jetting a carb or changing the de-greeing on your camshaft for a different power delivery.

its ---whole bike set up ----you can not rely on one guy to do your motor, and one to do the suspension ----then one to dial the chassis ----no no ----you need to be able to do it all and really get the thing working for you .

and understand how it all works together -----sure i do whole bike for guys ----and spend hrs at each track getting the shock to work with the motor and tire and riding style.------but most guys can not pay a guy to spend 3 month working with them to get two new bikes dialed .

so i love helping guys have the know how and the formulas to do it all them selves.

i am so tired of getting guys that have spent $1,000 on suspension and when we get to the track they can not ride the bike and i end up raping my bike so they can at least race --then their new $6,000-pc motor is slower than stock and it burns oil and the power is in a compleatly wrong spot for the suspension and rider ---- :p:bonk: ------ it is sad what goes on out there .

Dogger is able to alter all his settings , ----jetting -----chassis manners ,

valving ---tires ---,

the whole bike all by himself very quickly when he gets stronger and becomes way faster -------we all need to be able to do it this way !!! :lame:

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! thanks Kelly......Just hope now that you do not get flooded with PM's! :p

I just want to say again as I have in previous post that I can not thank Kelly enough for all the help that he has given me. He really has taught me more than I ever expected. I am still learning from him the total in's and out's of the valving but am at the point that I can make adjustments to the different circuts to produce results that I want and are not just educated guesses...

I know that this thread and a few other that I posted ruffled a few feathers but that was the intention to get these people either exposed or to contribute. As most can see that it did alittle more exposing than contributing. That is what I think is sad about this whole thing.

But thanks again Kelly you have been great.........:thumbsup::lame:

theDogger

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Reply with: