Rotella Synth?

[Bike_Pilot]

Seems quite a few guys on Thumpertalk are using Shell Rotella synthetic in all their bikes. I cannot find any Elf or Agip 10w60 full synthetic at my local shops and at $13.98 a quart I may not want to! Thinkin about going the Rotella route! This leads me to ask a question! Has anyone experienced an engine/clutch failure using Rotella? Here's your chance, talk me out of it! ?

[lairpost]

No engine/clutch failures, but it doesn't meet the vicosity requirement set by the engineers that made the engine/tranny. Just my 2c. You can order the 10w-60 from americanagip.com, it's about $8/liter shipped.

I do run Rotella synth in my XR250, works great, very nice shifting...e.g. smooth like butter.

Shell Rotella (both dino and 'synth') are highly refined diesel oils, lots of detergents...it's good stuff and I run it in my car/truck, but it's ~$4/quart in gallons at WallyMart, so it's not really that cheap. Since the bike only uses ~2 liters I feel better running what Husqvarna specs, and still changing it frequently.

[Nadeem]

Is the Rotella oil a 'true' synthetic or is it a hydrocracked mineral oil synthetic?

[lairpost]

It's a highly refined Group III synthetic. Hydrocracked if you will.

The Agip is a true Group IV PAO.

[Nadeem]

Haven't seen it in the UK yer, will stick to my Silkolene I think...!

[Husky Brothers]

You can get Agip in the UK if you go on to ebay and type in Agip theres a main importer thats selling it all on ebay but its very expensive so i just stick with my motorex just as good and KTM sponser motorex bloody good stuff and not to expensive. Ricky

[Nadeem]

Here's an explaination of oils from someone based at the research labs at Silkolene:

Firstly people need to understand that semi-synthetics are not in fact synthetic at all, they are at best modified mineral oils as are most of the synthetics on the shelves today. The only true synthetic basestocks are poly alpha olefins (pao) and esters of which there are two types used in oil polyol esters and diesters.

True synthetics are man made, not dug out of the ground and are superior in every way to their petroleum cousins.

When you use a semi-synthetic, it is in fact a mineral oil, petroleum derived, that's why they don't cost much. They are generally better than pure mineral oils as they have better detergency and heat tolerance but they are never the less still mineral based.

API groups oils into basestock catagories and here is the breakdown:

Basestock categories and descriptions

All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.

Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.

Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:

Group I

These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.

Group II

These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.

Group III

These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.

They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.

Group IV

These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.

Group V

These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.

The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.

It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.

Moving onto why synthetics are better is complicated but the article below adequately explains the benefits and why.

The basic benefits are as follows:

Extended oil drain periods

Better wear protection and therefore extended engine life

Most synthetics give better MPG

They flow better when cold and are more thermally stable when hot

Esters are surface-active meaning a thin layer of oil on the surfaces at all times

If you want to know the reasons why then please read on but, warning - Long Post!

Stable Basestocks

Synthetic oils are designed from pure, uniform synthetic basestocks, they contain no contaminants or unstable molecules which are prone to thermal and oxidative break down.

Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic lubricants operate with less internal and external friction than petroleum oils which have a non-uniform molecular structure.

The result is better heat control, and less heat means less stress to the lubricant.

Higher Percentage of Basestock

Synthetic oils contain a higher percentage of lubricant basestock than petroleum oils do.

This is because multi-viscosity oils need a great deal of pour point depressant and viscosity improvers to operate as a multigrade.

The basestocks actually do most of the lubricating. More basestocks mean a longer oil life.

Additives Used Up More Slowly

Petroleum basestocks are much more prone to oxidation than synthetic oils. Oxidation inhibitors are needed in greater quantities in petroleum oils as they are used up more quickly.

Synthetic oils do oxidize, but at a much slower rate therefore, oxidation inhibiting additives are used up more slowly.

Synthetic oils provide for better ring seal than petroleum oils do. This minimizes blow-by and reduces contamination by combustion by-products. As a result, corrosion inhibiting additives have less work to do and will last much longer in a synthetic oil.

Excellent Heat Tolerance

Synthetics are simply more tolerant to extreme heat than petroleum oils are. When heat builds up within an engine, petroleum oils quickly begin to burn off. They are more volatile. The lighter molecules within petroleum oils turn to gas and what's left are the large molecules that are harder to pump.

Synthetics have far more resistance as they are more thermally stable to begin with and can take higher temperatures for longer periods without losing viscosity.

Heat Reduction

One of the major factors affecting engine life is component wear and/or failure, which is often the result of high temperature operation. The uniformly smooth molecular structure of synthetic oils gives them a much lower coefficient friction (they slip more easily over one another causing less friction) than petroleum oils.

Less friction means less heat and heat is a major contributor to engine component wear and failure, synthetic oils significantly reduce these two detrimental effects.

Since each molecule in a synthetic oil is of uniform size, each is equally likely to touch a component surface at any given time, thus moving a certain amount of heat into the oil stream and away from the component. This makes synthetic oils far superior heat transfer agents than conventional petroleum oils.

Greater Film Strength

Petroleum motor oils have very low film strength in comparison to synthetics. The film strength of a lubricant refers to it's ability to maintain a film of lubricant between two objects when extreme pressure and heat are applied.

Synthetic oils will typically have a film strength of 5 to 10 times higher than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity.

Even though heavier weight oils typically have higher film strength than lighter weight oils, an sae 30 or 40 synthetic will typically have a higher film strength than an sae 50 or sae 60 petroleum oil.

A lighter grade synthetic can still maintain proper lubricity and reduce the chance of metal to metal contact. This means that you can use oils that provide far better fuel efficiency and cold weather protection without sacrificing engine protection under high temperature, high load conditions. Obviously, this is a big plus, because you can greatly reduce both cold temperature start-up wear and high temperature/high load engine wear using a low viscosity oil.

Engine Deposit Reduction

Petroleum oils tend to leave sludge, varnish and deposits behind after thermal and oxidative break down. They're better than they used to be, but it still occurs.

Deposit build-up leads to a significant reduction in engine performance and engine life as well as increasing the chance of costly repairs.

Synthetic oils have far superior thermal and oxidative stability and they leave engines virtually varnish, deposit and sludge-free.

Better Cold Temperature Fluidity

Synthetic oils do not contain the paraffins or other waxes which dramatically thicken petroleum oils during cold weather. As a result, they tend to flow much better during cold temperature starts and begin lubricating an engine almost immediately. This leads to significant engine wear reduction, and, therefore, longer engine life.

Improved Fuel Economy

Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic oils are tremendous friction reducers. Less friction leads to increased fuel economy and improved engine performance.

This means that more energy released from the combustion process can be transferred directly to the wheels due to the lower friction. Acceleration is more responsive and more powerful, using less fuel in the process.

In a petroleum oil, lighter molecules tend to boil off easily, leaving behind much heavier molecules which are difficult to pump. The engine loses more energy pumping these heavy molecules than if it were pumping lighter ones.

Synthetics are better and in many ways, they are basically better by design as they are created by chemists in laboratories for a specific purpose.

The biggest misconception of all spouted about oil by the uneducated/uninformed is "synthetics are too thin".

This is total nonsense, a 10w-40 synthetic is the same as a 10w-40 mineral oil or 10w-40 semi-synthetic viscosity (thickness) wise, 10w is around 1000cst at 0degC and 40 is around 14cst at 100degC, they have to be to be rated as a 10w-40!

Synthetic oils are capable of being blended in all viscosities of 0w-20 to 20w-60, it's just a case of basestock quality and selection the appropriate viscosity for the application.

Finally whilst I'm on misconceptions, many people do not understand how a multigrade actually works and what it means, the following should hopefully clear up a few questions.

A short lesson on Multigrades:

If you see an expression such as 10W-40, the oil is a multigrade.

This simply means that the oil falls into 2 viscosity grades, in this case 10W & 40.

This is made possible by the inclusion of a polymer, a component which slows down the rate of thinning as the oil warms up and slows down the rate of thickening as the oil cools down.

It was first developed some 50 years ago to avoid the routine of using a thinner oil in winter and a thicker oil in summer.

For a 10w-40 to attain the specification target a 10W ( W = winter) the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity at low temperature. The actual viscosity and the temperature vary with the viscosity grade but in all cases the lower the number, the thinner the oil, e.g. a 5W oil is thinner than a 10W oil at temperatures encountered in UK winter conditions.

This is important because a thinner oil will circulate faster on cold start, affording better engine protection.

For a 10w-40 to attain the other specification target a 40 oil must fall within certain limits at 100 degC. In this case the temperature target does not vary with the viscosity grade, if there is no "W", the measuring temperature is always 100degC. Again the lower the number the thinner the oil, a 30 oil is thinner than a 40 oil at 100 degC., which is typical of maximum bulk oil temperatures in an operating engine.

The engine makers are, of course, very well aware of this and specify oils according to engine design features, oil pump capacities, manufacturing tolerances, ambient temperature conditions etc. It is important to follow these guidelines, they are important and are an are stipulated for good reasons.

If the engine has been modified, the operating conditions may well be outside the original design envelope. The stress on the oil caused by increased maximum revs, power output and temperature may indicate that oil of a different type and viscosity grade would be beneficial.

[Bike_Pilot]

No engine/clutch failures, but it doesn't meet the vicosity requirement set by the engineers that made the engine/tranny. Just my 2c. You can order the 10w-60 from americanagip.com, it's about $8/liter shipped.

QUOTE]

Did not see this viscosity on the americanagip site. Only 10w50! I think I'll check my local KTM dealer for the Motorex 10w60.

[lairpost]

Hmm, looks like 10w-60 has been replaced by 20w-50, and the price is now $10/liter.

[KFXBob]

No engine/clutch failures, but it doesn't meet the vicosity requirement set by the engineers that made the engine/tranny. Just my 2c. You can order the 10w-60 from americanagip.com, it's about $8/liter shipped.

QUOTE]

Did not see this viscosity on the americanagip site. Only 10w50! I think I'll check my local KTM dealer for the Motorex 10w60.

Thats what I run, the Motorex 10w-60, from Chapparral Motorsports, also a KTM dealer. NOT cheap, but You spent quite abit more for Your Husky, why not give it the care it requires??

[Bike_Pilot]

Thats what I run, the Motorex 10w-60, from Chapparral Motorsports, also a KTM dealer. NOT cheap, but You spent quite abit more for Your Husky, why not give it the care it requires??

Totally agree Bob! Local KTM dealer only had 10w50 from Motorex and Elf. I purchased 1 litre of the Elf since I already have 1 litre of Elf 10w60 at home. That should get me through my next oil change for the weekend ride. I'll just mix the two for this oil change. Checked with another area bike shop (Portland Motorcycle) and they can order the Elf 10w60 buy the litre instead of the case at $12.00 a litre so I'm gonna go that route after this weekend.

[Nadeem]

The question is guys, how often are you changing oil...? I've heard of people changing every 200 miles...

[lairpost]

I change oil and filter every 300-400 miles, depends on whether or not I've been riding alone (e.g. less dust) or with others.

[Nadeem]

At those kind of mileages between changes, you could use any semi synthetic with no problems. I'm planning on changing every 1,000 from now on, using fully synthetic.

BTW - what's the dust got to do with it...? Wouldn't that just affect the air filter...don't really have dusty conditions here, so I don't know...

[lairpost]

At those kind of mileages between changes, you could use any semi synthetic with no problems. I'm planning on changing every 1,000 from now on, using fully synthetic.

BTW - what's the dust got to do with it...? Wouldn't that just affect the air filter...don't really have dusty conditions here, so I don't know...

Agreed, but I'd rather overkill the oil changes and oil quality as it's not that much money...compared to the gas I burn at 25MPG and $3.50/gal

Good point on the dust, it's not so much the dust as the fact that I'm riding with others and tend to rev harder/longer, more racey riding when I'm with others versus riding alone...

[oldgoated]

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

here's a good read on oils

[Husky_250]

Seems quite a few guys on Thumpertalk are using Shell Rotella synthetic in all their bikes. I cannot find any Elf or Agip 10w60 full synthetic at my local shops and at $13.98 a quart I may not want to! Thinkin about going the Rotella route! This leads me to ask a question! Has anyone experienced an engine/clutch failure using Rotella? Here's your chance, talk me out of it! ?

If you can get Shell Rotella, why not buy the best oil you can get for a bike: Shell Advance Ultra 4. I have used that oil in all of my 4stroke bikes (in SAE 15W-50).

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=advance-en&FC2=/advance-en/html/iwgen/leftnavs/zzz_lhn4_0_0.html&FC3=/advance-en/tailored/shell_for_motorists/motorcycles/advance/product_range/products_4t_ga_2101.html

[Flame]

Ou have to be careful about usuing oils with friction modifiers. That is what motorcycles oils do not have in them. The friction midifiers used in automotive oils will foil you clutch pack. Jaso MA rated oils have no friction midifiers in them. That is why I would never run an automotive oil that doesn't have the Jaso MA rating, you will never find an automotive oil that has the rating anyway. Forget the automotive oils, buy and use Motorcycle specific oil for wet clutches oil.

[sharpie1]

Ou have to be careful about usuing oils with friction modifiers. That is what motorcycles oils do not have in them. The friction midifiers used in automotive oils will foil you clutch pack. Jaso MA rated oils have no friction midifiers in them. That is why I would never run an automotive oil that doesn't have the Jaso MA rating, you will never find an automotive oil that has the rating anyway. Forget the automotive oils, buy and use Motorcycle specific oil for wet clutches oil.

Exactly why I dont understand why Rekluse recommends Rotella when using thier auto clutch. Anybody know the logic behind that? ?

[lairpost]

I emailed AmericanAgip regarding the apparent missing 10W-60 from their website, received this reply:

'The 4T Racing 10w-60 is available and may be ordered by credit card at jmoran@americanagip.com or by calling 800 632 8777 and asking for Jeanne. It was accidentally removed while we were upgrading our web site.'

For those that like to compare the technical specs of the oil they use, PDFs are on the Italian Agip site.

http://www.agip.it/rmit/agip/home.do?lang=en

In particular, look at the VI at 177 for the 10W-60.