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What do you think???

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A friend and I get into the same argument all the time about MX bikes and technology = speed.

I hope I can explain it so everyone can understand, It sometimes gets pretty heated because I know that he is not this stupid (Engineer).

It starts out with a simple race like Red Bud, then after the race he says "R.C. would have one that race on a bone stock bike"!

I was impressed with Ricky's win but I don't see his logic so the fight begins.

His argument is all the technology the pro's have is only worth a couple of tenths a lap and so the fight starts there.

The reason it pisses me off so much is it isn't really about the pro's, it is more about us and the racing we do (Hare Scrambles) and how I am stupid for buying a new bike and wanting to get the suspension worked to help myself get faster.........Well he say's some crap like "you aren't getting the most out of what you have so no technology in the world will make up the difference, you may gain a second a lap and that is it"!

And after he spent close to a grand on his KTM suspension last winter I asked him if it was allot better his comment will be "What do I know, a pro could get allot more out of it then me......I just ride it"

His whole point is 99% rider and 1% bike or what I think he should be saying is "I am faster than you!"

I unfortunately broke both wrist and a knee so my new stuff is waiting till I get healthy to ride.

I have been racing a 2000 yz125 for the last 2 years and it was a fun bike, but I weigh 200# and it wasn't cutting it, not to mention I took the rear shock off and it had 0 nitrogen in it and the thing still had stock springs and valves in the suspension

Now I have a 06 yz250f and the shocks are at the shop getting worked for HS's.

So the proof will be in the pudding as the say :thumbsup:

This post might be a little scatter brained but it is hard to type all that goes on to get me to this point, and I keep adding stuff as I get more pissed thinking about it :ride:

Let me know what you think?

Is it all rider?

Could RC win on stock motor and suspension?

Is it a waste of money buying better stuff and having it worked? (don't really care, did it anyway)

Thanks

E

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I think your buddy is mostly right with his statement that it's 99% rider, 1% bike. Would RC win on a stock bike, I would say yes to a stock engine, but for his level, he may need to modify his suspension significantly from stock. I say this because Villipoto is faster on his 250F than most of the 450F riders and there is no way a heavily worked on 250F would compare to a stock 450 engine.

However, there is also no doubt that suspension work and smart engine work done on almost anyones bike will make for faster lap times. It may not be much faster and there maywell be guys and girls out there that could go faster on stock bikes but the point to the mods was to make the bike faster and as long as they do, then the goal is achaived. So in my mine, as long as the engine work and suspesion work don't leave you so broke that you show up to races with half worn tires cause you can't afford new ones, then do it :thumbsup:

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I have to agree with you're buddy too, the pro would win on a stock bike compared to someone else on a factory or stock bike. If he was good enough to make pro and get hooked up with a full factory ride, then obviously he's fast on any bike...it's not like he started out with a factory bike.

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I believe RC could win on a stock bike. JS may beat him since they are so close, but nobody else. It is 99% rider, and RC could actually beat all those guys on a cr250 if he wanted. I do get entertained out of all the money that chumps throw at aftermarket this and aftermarket that though, especially exhaust. There are certain situations where a bigger bike will make a difference though I agree. I've ridden a 125 in the woods and they are a blast, but when it comes to big hill climbs they just don't have the power. On the track, I think a 125 is at less of a disadvantage though and a good rider on a 125 will kill a lesser skilled rider on a 450. I don't know what the actual times were, but JS was setting times real close to the top 450's 2 years ago on his 125! Take your aftermarket pipe and smoke it if you ask me.

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well, if you watch the races closely, just watch how many jumps would flip them over the bar's or carry the momentum to make them smash their face on the bars. id say w/o that suspension, it would be a whole different story, they can case a Jump and they wont feel it, the bike looks perfect just like the rear and front wheel are moving up and down. but besides that, they would do fine i think. I'm gonna go with the other percentage i believe in more. 10% bike, 90% rider.

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I'd have to say the most major change you can make on your bike is the suspension. Everything else doesn't make that big of a difference. But in a way I can see both of your point of views but I would have to agree with your buddy on this one.

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I'd have to agree with your buddy. Suspension is super important though. Cornering is where so much speed is made up or lost and without suspension tuned to a riders weight it can't be done most efficiently. The funny thing is that many people will trash the stock can the day they buy the bike and put on some $800 exhaust and there are way more important things to do before that. I think many riders are negativly affected by an aftermarket can because the extra 2 horsepower, or whatever, makes the bike slightly more jumpy and difficult to control. I think it's like the way just about anyone is faster on a 250f vs. a 450f in woods riding.

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Well I dont think its 99% rider 1% bike I think its more like 85% rider 15% bike. I read an article in dirtrider a few months ago that talked about how ryan hughes beat one of the dirtrider staff on a DRZ125 while the dirtrider staff person was on a RMZ450. As far as your buddy bagging on you for getting a new bike and wanting to upgrade it....I think he should be quiet because every little performance thing will help you a little bit. (as long as it is not making the bike nastier) He may not think that a boyeseen accelerator pump cover will do anything but it could save you from a crash one day when you land a jump and you can do it with the throttle on and manage to avoid a downed rider or something.

As far as pipes are concerned, I think that some bikes benefit from them. I know that my YZ450F has a very hard hitting mid range and I am currently saving up so that I can buy a DRD full system that will help to smooth out the mid range AND it is not any louder than stock. Besides that, my stock pipe has major damage in 2 places.

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I know that for me an aftermarket Pipe is one of the first things I bought for my 06 yz250f, after a 49 tooth sprocket. I bought a complete pro circuit ti-4 barely touched for $200. I have a 02 yz250f with a complete FMF titanium 4 exhaust w/ 49 tooth sprocket and I wasn't able to clear some of the larger jumps right out of the corner with the 06 at my local practice track that I could with my 02. I also weigh about 215lbs at 6'4" w/o gear, so I need any additional power I can get to have the same weight to power ratio as a lighter rider.

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Could Carmichael win on a stock bike? Sure. Could RC ride a stocker and beat Stewart and the factory KXF? Or Chad Reed's YZF? F**k no.

Is it the technology? Well, I hear numbers like $50,000 to $250,000 as the investment put into a factory bike. Does your friend really think all that is just clicker adjustments and jetting changes? They POUR technology into the factory bikes. Why? It's what it takes TO WIN RACES. It may not be on the bike - stuff like shock dynos, rubber compound testers, exhaust gas analyzers - but it is what makes a "factory" bike.

Have your friend read all the magazine articles written by Pro-level riders (not just magazine testers - I mean guys like Andrew Short, Nick Wey, Tim Ferry, and Kevin Windham), about the difference between a full-factory bike and anything else. They all mention how insanely sweet a factory bike is compared to even what a satellite team can offer.

What about the "One Year Rule", where a team can run a prototype bike for one year before it goes into production (think Doug Henry's YZ400F, Windham's CR450F, Sebastien Tortelli's RMZ450, and Stewart's KX450F). The motors on these bikes are 100% technology.

Would RC ever choose to do without those "couple of tenths a lap" that $100,000 buys? Hell no.

BTW, spend your $$$ any way you want to. Then use your pompous engineer's position against him - dial your bike in, train and practice...

and kick his butt! :thumbsup:

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Why would he need to "train and practice"? Sounds to me like you believe it's all about the bling. Like I said, I disagree and I do believe RC could beat anyone except JS because they are always within a few tenths of each other. RC beats Reed by a huge margin. Tell me again how JS can beat a bunch of 250f's on a 125? He is giving up more power in that situation that I feel RC would give up on a stock 450 to the factory 450's (power that is used) but yes he is getting the chasis upgrades.

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I read an article in dirtrider a few months ago that talked about how ryan hughes beat one of the dirtrider staff on a DRZ125 while the dirtrider staff person was on a RMZ450.

:ride: The article had another part wher ryan hughes whupped the dirtrider staffer on a rm85, so rider is everythang, but at the level most of us are at, the bike has a purddy good amount to do with it. However i would say that it's 85% rider and 25% bike,(remember to give 110%) but who cares rider ur best and push it just enuff, to get faster. :cry:

p.s. pros are bad mofos. :thumbsup::ride:

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I agree with both of you in a way. yes a fast rider can make more of a difference than a fast bike but if you are trying to race at a national level in say the intermediate class and you are training everyday to get a little faster(even though a pro could make it go faster) and the competition is doing the same thing but on a mod bike while your on stock he's gonna win. Especially because he will have that advantage on the holeshot which is a huge factor in the 5 lap races at most nationals. but if you are any slower than a pretty quick novice it would probably benefit you more to get lessons and drop more money into practice passes to learn how to get faster than make the bike faster just for you to go just as slow. IMO LESSONS are more valuable and more fun than mods.

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Why would he need to "train and practice"?
I wrote, "...use your pompous engineer's position against him...". His friend's position was it's "...99% rider and 1% bike". Therefore, "spend your $$$ any way you want to", BUT, if you want to put your efforts where you will see the greatest gains, improve the rider - that would be the "train and practice" part.
Sounds to me like you believe it's all about the bling.
Once again, read what the factory guys say about the difference between a stocker and a factory bike. They know more about it than most of us will. Do you really think the cash spent preparing a factory bike is for "show"?

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...yes a fast rider can make more of a difference than a fast bike but if you are trying to race at a national level in say the intermediate class and you are training everyday to get a little faster(even though a pro could make it go faster) and the competition is doing the same thing but on a mod bike while your on stock he's gonna win. Especially because he will have that advantage on the holeshot which is a huge factor in the 5 lap races at most nationals. but if you are any slower than a pretty quick novice it would probably benefit you more to get lessons and drop more money into practice passes to learn how to get faster than make the bike faster just for you to go just as slow. IMO LESSONS are more valuable and more fun than mods.
Absolutely. But, at the very top level of competition, bikes DO make a difference. Otherwise, why would the teams invest so much money into the bikes, and why do all riders (ESPECIALLY the one's who have lost a factory ride) want to be on a factory bike? (Besides the chicks.) :thumbsup:

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95% rider 5% bike, RC is that good, and could probably beat all but a handful of riders using a stock bike, but not if he is racing guys that are at his level and are using after market products, or suspension improvments.

I saw Heath Voss race a stock bike and got fourth place one time. Tommy Hahn, and a few others beat him, but RC could have beaten them.

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...His argument is all the technology the pro's have is only worth a couple of tenths a lap...
Have your friend attend a National or a Supercross. After the races, have your friend ask ALL of the top ten riders if they could have done what they did (within a few tenths a lap) on a well set-up stock bike. C'mon, HE'S the engineer! He should know all about gathering information before formulating an opinion.

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it is definately 99%-1%. Obviously the same rider will be faster on a factory bike set up for them over a bone stock bike.

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This post turned out better than I expected :thumbsup:

I plan on leaving the motor stock, and stock pipe.

I have been riding and racing (road race, MX, now woods) since I was a kid with long breaks in between but have never treated myself to nice equipment.

We are both pretty close in speed but in a 2 hour race running crap for suspension I have nothing at the end.

I did race my brothers 03 yz250f one time last year (all stock stuff) and it was like heaven and I would have beaten my buddy but I gooned out 3 times on the last lap and he got me by like 15 seconds or so.

I agree bikes are allot different than most motor sports but I also know that if you can do something to make yourself more comfortable and use less energy you may or may not gain speed, but your times will not fall off as much in a 2 hour race, and me being 6'2 200lbs., there is not much on a stock bike that was designed for me. :ride:

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