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New to site. Need Suspension Help

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Ok, I have a 2005 CRF 450 and I have finally decided to invest some money into suspension. I just spoke to the guys at RG3, it sounds like they know what they're talking about. Has anyone here gotten a revalve? Was it worth the money :thumbsup: ?

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I have not used RG3 personally, but I have heard good things about them.

I have used Race Tech and Factory Connection several times. Not taking anything away from Race Tech but for my personal taste I like the way Factory Connection sets up my stuff.

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Educate yourself and do it yourself.!!!!

theDogger

this is what i will be doing!!! should be interesting. but atleast ill know how it all works after!! :thumbsup:

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The Moto Power DVDs are pretty helpful if you've never torn into your suspension before.

They go over everything in great detail. Someone who is new to working on suspension shouldn't have a problem as long as they are competent when it comes to turning wrenches.

They might screw something up when they start dicking around with the shim stacks, but they'll be able to tear it apart and put it back together. :thumbsup:

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Naw thats 7'4" Rik Smit from the Pacers. He races the vintage class. I guess that he is pretty good.

He is a good 7" bigger than me :thumbsup::ride::applause:

smits_300_motocross.jpg

Here is a link Rik Smit

theDogger

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The Moto Power DVDs are pretty helpful if you've never torn into your suspension before.

They go over everything in great detail. Someone who is new to working on suspension shouldn't have a problem as long as they are competent when it comes to turning wrenches.

They might screw something up when they start dicking around with the shim stacks, but they'll be able to tear it apart and put it back together. :thumbsup:

Not to bash but the DVD's are not really worth it. As matter a fact all of them are very very very basic. I have watched my friends (Valve, top-end, shock and fork) and they miss so many key points about general maintaince and advice it is not funny. In the shock DVD they do not even montion the sacked out bladder that they re-use.

If you want a guide on how to change your oil then OK. But if you are looking for something beyond that then good luck!!!! This applies to all the DVD's very basic. In the Valve adj. dvd they do not even touch on adj. the decompressor after the shim change

theDogger

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Factory Conection did mine. Perfect from the get go. They guarantee your happiness. Tech support is top notch. They do the Honda's of Windham, Larocco, Sobe/Samsung Race Team. My buddy went with RG3 and was happy as well. Although his wasn't as close to being perfect like Factory Connection, but we got it there.

As far as doing it yourself, do you have that much free time to dabble in it or do you want to throw it in the truck and get out and ride?

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What does everyone think of MX-Tech? There rates are really cheap, they did my dads KX250 (before we bought it) and it seems OK but im still not sure, i would really like factory connection to do mine, but their rates are high, but i guess you get what you pay for

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They do the Honda's of Windham, Larocco, Sobe/Samsung Race Team.

No they actually do not. K-Dub and the Rock have the true Showa works kits that are supplied and supported by the Showa. They just run the FC stickers on the bikes because that is who pays the bills!!!

but their rates are high, but i guess you get what you pay for

Well lets put it this way all the major suspension (not sure about MX-Tech) tuners basically have a cookie cutter valve schemes. They use it and change the spring rates and oil heights and send it back. So you are really not getting a custom valve job.

I am willing to bet you that if you and a buddy sent your suspension in and I did the same(granted that they are the same bikes)that when got them back and torn the suspension open the valving would be exactly the same just different springs and oill height.

If you really want custom you have to complain a lot and send it back a bunch before the really start changing the valve stack to suite you personally.

So my suggestion is poke around here on the boards there are a few that know whats up with valving and can get you in the ball park. You are over paying for a 20-30 minute job at best.

If you can change your spark plug you can tear your suspension apart and revalve it yourself. That way when you are not happy you can make the changes and see what is effected and really make your suspension suite your needs.

theDogger

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Well lets put it this way all the major suspension (not sure about MX-Tech) tuners basically have a cookie cutter valve schemes. They use it and change the spring rates and oil heights and send it back. So you are really not getting a custom valve job.

I am willing to bet you that if you and a buddy sent your suspension in and I did the same(granted that they are the same bikes)that when got them back and torn the suspension open the valving would be exactly the same just different springs and oill height.

If you really want custom you have to complain a lot and send it back a bunch before the really start changing the valve stack to suite you personally.

So my suggestion is poke around here on the boards there are a few that know whats up with valving and can get you in the ball park. You are over paying for a 20-30 minute job at best.

If you can change your spark plug you can tear your suspension apart and revalve it yourself. That way when you are not happy you can make the changes and see what is effected and really make your suspension suite your needs.

theDogger

I have been with RG3 for a couple of years and I wish learning to valve for different tracks and riders was as easy as watching a DVD. The idea of "cookie cutter" valve stacks would save us a lot of time but upset a lot of customers and ruin our credibility. The theory of suspension valving is very complicated with so many factors i.e. Shim outside diameter, inside diameter, thickness, the number of shims, the amount they flex in the stack.... The list goes on. There are calculations to be made along with the experience from know what a single shim will do to the bike.

I'm sorry, but it's almost laughable to think someone that can change a spark plug can re-valve a bike.

I can't speak for other suspension companies, but we take into account a riders height, weight, riding level, the type of tracks, and even their personal preference for set-up into account. This makes for very different valving in everybody's bikes. Do we always get it right? No, but I could confidently say 98 out out 100 people are completely happy with their suspension. The other 1 or 2 guys we immediately give them a setting that suits them.

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i had mb1 do mine and it is absolutely amazing. buttery smooth... perfect balance... everything.

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I have been with RG3 for a couple of years and I wish learning to valve for different tracks and riders was as easy as watching a DVD. The idea of "cookie cutter" valve stacks would save us a lot of time but upset a lot of customers and ruin our credibility. The theory of suspension valving is very complicated with so many factors i.e. Shim outside diameter, inside diameter, thickness, the number of shims, the amount they flex in the stack.... The list goes on. There are calculations to be made along with the experience from know what a single shim will do to the bike.

I'm sorry, but it's almost laughable to think someone that can change a spark plug can re-valve a bike.

I can't speak for other suspension companies, but we take into account a riders height, weight, riding level, the type of tracks, and even their personal preference for set-up into account. This makes for very different valving in everybody's bikes. Do we always get it right? No, but I could confidently say 98 out out 100 people are completely happy with their suspension. The other 1 or 2 guys we immediately give them a setting that suits them.

I feel that this is the biggest farce in the industry....suspension tuning. Yes it is true that there a many factors that come into play when shimming but with some basic knowledge and trial and error the average Joe can revolve his own bike to suit his needs.

I speak from experience....I have had my suspension sent out to a un-named company for a lot of years and for the most part have been happy. Then as I progressed and got faster...their setup were not working for me...I would have to send them back 3-4x to get it right.

Then one day when changing oil I decided to look at the valve stacks and see what they had done. I recorded it and then compared it to the OEM stack to see the changes....then just out of sheer wonder opened up my buddies that was valved at the same place and I'd be damned the exact setup only different springs and oil height.

So over the next 3 years we repeated the same thing and we could not believe it they were carbon copies. The last year we did this there were 5 of us using a un-named company and all the stacks were the same...go figure! This has also been confirmed by others....I can post all the stacks if you want for people knowledge.....

I guess what I am getting at unless you are at a level were you can really tell the difference in changes to the suspension most of the guys sending their stuff in are weekend warriors, trail riders and the tuners know that.....so cookie cutters...and along the way they may get some riders that actually are at a level were their cookie cutter doesn't work anymore...

Look at Race Tech....Paul Thead got sick of the suspension gig and mass produced a gold valve......a cure all...we have a master data base with the right shim stack for you. Shame on you Paul......

Like I said EASY$$$$$$$

And yes servicing your own suspension is VERY easy.......

My suggestion to everyone is save your $$$$$$ go on eBay buy a 2nd fork and shock and learn for yourself.....they are cheap and a great learning tool. That way when you are going through your learning process you have 2 of everyting and can make changes to one and swap out at the track when you are testing with low down times and track what changes you made and what the difference was on the bike. That way when you goto different tracks you can pull your log and change valving for the track and conditions....but on the flip side I bet that most of you are not going to do this becasue you fall into that group of week-end warriors.....

Once you get a fork and shock valve stack that you like you can pretty much carry it over to the next bike and make minor adjustments.....

theDogger

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Well, I think what Dogger is saying is probably true in many cases. However, the guy who does my suspension doesn't cookie cut. The only place I can see him doing that is for someone who really doesn't want tailor made suspension setup. Not everyone is willing to pay for a true "full revalve". All the bells and whistles cost, and some guys come in on a budget.

Not sure if I can post up the name of the shop or not, but it is Palo Verde Suspension (MX Tech).

The owner, John, will work with you like no one else I've ever seen to get it perfect for you. He will even come to the track if necessary to help you fine tune the setup. If he needs to go into the valve stack to make it right, he doesn't charge you extra. You tell him your weight, riding style, etc., and he puts in the stuff that works from his experience.

Everyone gets faster over time, goes bigger, etc. John continues to make adjustments to my stuff each time I take it in for service. Sometimes because I need the bike to be stiffer because I'm going bigger or faster, sometimes just because he learned something new and wants to pass it on to me.

So, if you are having bad experiences with suspension tuning, maybe it is the shop you are sending it to that is the problem.

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No they actually do not. K-Dub and the Rock have the true Showa works kits that are supplied and supported by the Showa. They just run the FC stickers on the bikes because that is who pays the bills!!!

Well lets put it this way all the major suspension (not sure about MX-Tech) tuners basically have a cookie cutter valve schemes. They use it and change the spring rates and oil heights and send it back. So you are really not getting a custom valve job.

I am willing to bet you that if you and a buddy sent your suspension in and I did the same(granted that they are the same bikes)that when got them back and torn the suspension open the valving would be exactly the same just different springs and oill height.

If you really want custom you have to complain a lot and send it back a bunch before the really start changing the valve stack to suite you personally.

So my suggestion is poke around here on the boards there are a few that know whats up with valving and can get you in the ball park. You are over paying for a 20-30 minute job at best.

If you can change your spark plug you can tear your suspension apart and revalve it yourself. That way when you are not happy you can make the changes and see what is effected and really make your suspension suite your needs.

theDogger

Do I have to call BS on you Dogger? I know all about your suspension! :thumbsup:

BTW - Rocco ran KYB. :ride:

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No not really because I claim to be no expert but rather someone who got tired of the shit and wanted to learn on his own. It is not rocket science. Granted I have some great guidance but most of this is what happened to me in the past when I raced......and just getting back into the sport I found a lot of the same shit going on. I was looking for help with the new stuff and found it. I called around and not one of the shops with the exception of MX-Tech(Jeremy) offered any help but it was still not enough.

Technology has change since the last time I had raced so after talking to some other board members my doubts were confirmed and my eyes opened again. If it was not for the help that I received from them I would probally still be sending my stuff out and not being fully happy and getting this cookie cutter stuff.

Josh you could have benifited from this becasue after you modd'ed your CRF ( and you mentioned this in one of your post about the cam) there is no way that the suspension was up to the par with the engine. You spent all that time getting the engine screaming and that possiblly was more work that taking the suspension apart and revalving it. You have better access than I do to these resources they are in your backyard!

Now I know what is going on and how to fix it. You see I have this disease and most all of you have it to a extent on this board too Some more than others... Its call ILIKETAF$#@WITHSHIT! There is no cure!

So my sole purpose of this is hopefully open up some people eyes because this industry is getting shitty.

So call it what you will I have no trouble admitting that I am getting help and I just want to pass that on to others.....and break the myth

And yes I know that the Rock was running KYB's but they were still the factory shit that even top privateers can not get!

(PS Josh, thanks for the cam just got it today!)

theDogger

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I'm not saying that certain people aren't capable of doing their own suspension. I used to do my own stuff on my first bike.

If you dive into your suspension, two biggest recommendations I could give are:

-- Get the right tools for the job

-- Keep everything clean, splotless clean

ben

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So my sole purpose of this is hopefully open up some people eyes because this industry is getting shitty.

So call it what you will I have no trouble admitting that I am getting help and I just want to pass that on to others.....and break the myth

And yes I know that the Rock was running KYB's but they were still the factory shit that even top privateers can not get!

(PS Josh, thanks for the cam just got it today!)

theDogger

You'll have to excuse me because I haven't been on thumper talk for long. Is this Lechien?

More power to you if you are able to understand suspension re-valve theory, it's a rare few who do. I think the average rider/racer who takes his program seriously does not have the knowledge nor time it would take to start from ground zero on revalving their fork and shock. That is why a trusted company that has countless hours testing, and doing research might be a better bet. As for it taking 20 to 30 minutes to revalve a bike.... I think you know better than that. About an hour and a half per side if someone is doing a complete disassembly and replacing worn parts and looking at which shims should actually be used.

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