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is it bad to swtich from syn oil to dino?

By mattbmx,
in General Dirt Bike Discussion

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Dwight_Rudder

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You are going to run a petroleum based auto oil in a 13,000+ rpm engine ?

Not a good idea. But go for it if you think you can get away with it.

Personally , I would pick the best Synthetic motorcycle oil that I could find. Oil is cheap insurance. Even at $10 a qt. Destroy the head one time and find out.

Dwight

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beezerjoe

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Its not good to switch back and forth from syn to dino and back. Sometimes synthetic and dino oils dont mix well together and it can create a gummy mess in your engine.

If you do it once I think you would be OK, but dont do it all the time.

in my line of work i've seen that happen alot acustomer brings his truck in and they have mixed oils like that in a hub, rearend or trans and like the captain says it makes a slimy greasy mess .if you're going to change to synthetic stick with it you should be alright.listen to what dwight says about oil you'll save yourself alot of heartache.

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reconranger

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If any machine can benefit from running a synthetic, it is a screaming 250! You sound a little confused about oil, so read this first: https://www.thumpertalk.com/

What are we talking about here: Transmission side, or engine side or both?????

First off, the conventional wisdom is that you don't switch to a synthetic until the engine is FULLY BROKEN IN. I would say you switched way to early! Whether you can go back to petro now and if it would it be any benefit, is an unknown.

And, I am no big fan of Rotella synthetic anyway! As a chemist, I can tell you that it's chemistry (group III) is far inferior to a PAO (Mobil 1 or Amsoil) and the PAO's are inferior to the Ester Synthetics (Maxima Extra or Motul 5100). Plus, Rotella (either synthetic or petroleum) is a car oil, and doesn't have as robust an add pack (high pressure additives that protect your transmission gears and cam) as an API SG motorcycle oil. http://www.maximausa.com/technical/lubenews/LubeNews2002.pdf AND http://www.scooterhelp.com/genmaintain/crankcase.oil.html

That said, I have no problem with you running Rotella (synth or petroleum) in the ENGINE side, where you are NOT lubing transmission gears. It's not the best choice you could make, but it's ok. But, absolutely DO NOT RUN ROTELLA IN YOUR TRANSMISSION! Do yourself a favor and run Honda's own red Trans Oil or Maxima MTL, or a motorcycle specific oil that is API SG/JASO MA in the trans.

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Dwight_Rudder

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It will be fine. The engine will break in better from the get go with dino oil.

This is a old wives tale. Synthetic oil is not slicker but more durable. As long as the additive package is correct for a motorcycle you should have no problem with the engine breaking in.

Dwight

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Dwight_Rudder

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Synthetic can prevent the rings from mating to the cylinder giving you ring seal issues. You should always break the motor in with Dino oil and then switch to Synthetic...at least if you care about performance.

Bill, Read my above response. That is an old wives tale. I used to believe this too but I was shown why I was wrong. Synthetic oil is not slicker just more durable. If it was your wet clutch would slip. I think some of the early Automotive "Synthetic" oils were to blame for this early perception . They had slick additives (Friction modifiers) like moly added to the oil which caused the breakin problems. There was nothing wrong with synthetic oil. Just be sure to use a MOTORCYCLE oil with a JASO MA rating. A motorcycle synthetic oil with a JASO MB rating will be too slick. ( I.E. Honda Synthetic with Moly) . Never use a JASO MB rated oil in a wet clutch environment. Also break in your engine with a JASO MA rated oil. Engines like Honda's CRF250F and CRF450F are examples of engines that can use a JASO MB rated oil once broken in. BUT ONLY IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. Never in the transmission area.

Cher'o,

Dwight

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reconranger

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I too am suspicious that the "break it in with dino oil before you switch to synthetic" may be an old wives tale, BUT WHY TAKE A CHANCE???? I don't see a downside with running a few hours with dino during breakin, when I'm changing my oil and filter every hour anyway!

I did notice that motoman and a couple of others on the web recommend a petroleum break in. But, nobody talks about the reason in any detail. I will try to post some links........

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MutualBill

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Bill, Read my above response. That is an old wives tale. I used to believe this too but I was shown why I was wrong. Synthetic oil is not slicker just more durable. If it was your wet clutch would slip. I think some of the early Automotive "Synthetic" oils were to blame for this early perception . They had slick additives (Friction modifiers) like moly added to the oil which caused the breakin problems. There was nothing wrong with synthetic oil. Just be sure to use a MOTORCYCLE oil with a JASO MA rating. A motorcycle synthetic oil with a JASO MB rating will be too slick. ( I.E. Honda Synthetic with Moly) . Never use a JASO MB rated oil in a wet clutch environment. Also break in your engine with a JASO MA rated oil. Engines like Honda's CRF250F and CRF450F are examples of engines that can use a JASO MB rated oil once broken in. BUT ONLY IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. Never in the transmission area.

Cher'o,

Dwight

I disagree. Practical experience from the top engine builders that I know of says that synthetic or other oil additives prevent good break in.

The purpose of synthetic and additives is to prevent wear. That is the problem. You need some wear during break in to mate the parts together properly.

It is not about being slick...it is about the better barrier between the parts that synthetic provides.

That is why cylinders are left with a rough cross hatch. To aid quick wear in and mating.

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WheelsUp

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The purpose of synthetic and additives is to prevent wear. That is the problem. You need some wear during break in to mate the parts together properly.

It is not about being slick...it is about the better barrier between the parts that synthetic provides.

So why not just break it in with NO oil?

I've switched to synthetic at 2k on my last 4 or 5 autos and NONE have had any oil-use issues up to and over 100,000 miles.

I switched my Vulcan 1600 to synthetic at 500 miles. I'm approaching 2500 now and the oil has not MOVED in the sight glass... it's not burning any, and Vulcans are well known for using oil on extended high-speed runs... 70% of my riding is on the freeway at 70-80.

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Aaron_Silidker

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So why not just break it in with NO oil?

I've switched to synthetic at 2k on my last 4 or 5 autos and NONE have had any oil-use issues up to and over 100,000 miles.

I switched my Vulcan 1600 to synthetic at 500 miles. I'm approaching 2500 now and the oil has not MOVED in the sight glass... it's not burning any, and Vulcans are well known for using oil on extended high-speed runs... 70% of my riding is on the freeway at 70-80.

That's because they are broken in at the factory. When I had an engine built for my cobra replica the engine builder broke it in on his dyno, 3k rpm, full load for an hour with old school 30wt oil. Once the steam stopped coming out of the breathers, the rings were seated properly. A full load dyno run in controlled conditions is the best way to break an engine in.

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MutualBill

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So why not just break it in with NO oil?

I've switched to synthetic at 2k on my last 4 or 5 autos and NONE have had any oil-use issues up to and over 100,000 miles.

I switched my Vulcan 1600 to synthetic at 500 miles. I'm approaching 2500 now and the oil has not MOVED in the sight glass... it's not burning any, and Vulcans are well known for using oil on extended high-speed runs... 70% of my riding is on the freeway at 70-80.

One extreme to the next. The idea is to mate them together...not burn them up and melt them together.

For most applications...the important mating of parts is done in 20-30 minutes of flucuating loading. After that...synthetic should be good.

Eddie usually breaks his motors in on the Dyno.

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Dwight_Rudder

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I disagree. Practical experience from the top engine builders that I know of says that synthetic or other oil additives prevent good break in.

The purpose of synthetic and additives is to prevent wear. That is the problem. You need some wear during break in to mate the parts together properly.

It is not about being slick...it is about the better barrier between the parts that synthetic provides.

That is why cylinders are left with a rough cross hatch. To aid quick wear in and mating.

I too have worked with a lot of top engine builders. Al Baker , Thumper Racing, PowRoll, Even KTM recommends Synthetic oil form the get go. I have designed and build numerous engines myself. Most of time problems with breakin is because of the material the rings are made of.

Just be sure to run the correct type of synthetic oil and never automotive.

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MutualBill

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I too have worked with a lot of top engine builders. Al Baker , Thumper Racing, PowRoll, Even KTM recommends Synthetic oil form the get go. I have designed and build numerous engines myself. Most of time problems with breakin is because of the material the rings are made of.

Just be sure to run the correct type of synthetic oil and never automotive.

So have I. And I have always had perfect results with this widely accepted method. I wouldn't dream of altering my procedure just out of spite.

I have seen it happen where rings failed to seat...and it was usually a motor that was broke in with synthetic...or an additive like STP.

Do as you like. I'm sticking with what works...everytime.

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