Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  

off road 2 strokes

Recommended Posts

after reading the article about the 2007 ktm XCs in october 2007 dirt rider, i was amazed at first how good the 2 stroke XCs where. then i realized why they seemed so amazing; they have no competition. the kawasaki kdx 200 and 220 are just not competitive stock. and suzuki honda and yamaha are nowhere to be found. why dosnt honda, suzuki and yamaha make 2 stroke off roaders? if they would put softer suspension, and drop the front sprocket down a few teeth, add a flywheel weight, spark arrestor, skid plate, handguards, larger capacity tank, wider ratio transmission, and mabe a headlight on a cr250, it would be better than a 250XC! they could sell it for about 500 or 750 more than a regular cr250 and they would most likely sell alot of them, they could call it the CRX250r. they could do that to the cr85 to and would sell alot of them, heck if they made a CRX200r they would most likely sell more than ktm sells the 200XC. just my oppinion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would any of those bike companies waste their time creating a new line of smokers when the trend is aggressively moving towards thumpers? Their not going to waste their time/money in a new 2 stroke model. Just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does Kevin Hines still make CRE250's and 125's?

The CRE bikes were exactly what you are talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why would any of those bike companies waste their time creating a new line of smokers when the trend is aggressively moving towards thumpers? Their not going to waste their time/money in a new 2 stroke model. Just my opinion.

i am talking about harescramble bikes like the 200exc, 2 strokes are not a waste of time or money when it comes to harescrambles and harescrambles are gaining popularity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KTM has always been an off-road (HS, GNCC, WORCS, etc) focused company. The Japanese manufacturers couldn't sell enough bikes to make any money. That being said, it wouldn't be hard to modify the existing MX 2 strokes for woods racing. Unfortunately, the EPA does NOT like 2 strokes and has set pollution limits that all but make it impossible for a manufacturer to build and sell off road 2 strokes (and yes, I'm including KTM) for use on public lands. Here in Alberta we don't have to worry about this (yet) but even the off road 4 strokes are coming with that stupid emissions equipment. A commercial jet aricraft puts out more pollution on takeoff than a thousand 2 strokes running all day. Priorities seem to be somewhat skewed at the EPA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You hit the nail on the head with the emissions thing. 2 strokes do have their benefits, but in order to ride on public lands, new bikes must be "green sticker" (california term).

That means clean emissions. The death of the 2stroke is being helped significantly by the fact that you simply cannot ride the new ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too bad for California. Guys are winning harescrambles left and right on 2-strokes here on the east coast. I would love to have a new 250xc. Japanese bike makers couldn't build anything that comes close to what ktm has been doing for years. And outsell at a higher price? What you smokin friend?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You hit the nail on the head with the emissions thing. 2 strokes do have their benefits, but in order to ride on public lands, new bikes must be "green sticker" (california term).

That means clean emissions. The death of the 2stroke is being helped significantly by the fact that you simply cannot ride the new ones.

Guess what, there are about 49 other states that dont require a green sticker to ride. The 2 stroke is the most competative bike in the woods. Think i'll be going back soon, the hell with these 4 strokes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You hit the nail on the head with the emissions thing. 2 strokes do have their benefits, but in order to ride on public lands, new bikes must be "green sticker" (california term).

That means clean emissions. The death of the 2stroke is being helped significantly by the fact that you simply cannot ride the new ones.

Arizona is in the process of doing the same thing..Its called the ' Copper sticker Program"..Old bikes will be grandfathered in...New ones will be closed course only..Because we all know at tracks they will capture the air and clean it..!! :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guess what, there are about 49 other states that dont require a green sticker to ride. The 2 stroke is the most competative bike in the woods. Think i'll be going back soon, the hell with these 4 strokes.

Its coming faster than you know it..Its all about R E V E N U E .....You want to ride you gotta pay..cash = Freedom..no cash, no freedom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mabe a headlight on a cr250, it would be better than a 250XC! they could sell it for about 500 or 750 more than a regular cr250 and they would most likely sell alot of them, they could call it the CRX250r.

Honda HM in Italy sells exactly what you described, the CRE 250, but they don't come that way from the factory, they are modified in the country and labeled as "Cre". 2006 CRE 250

Yamaha offered the WR until 04' outside the US. I don't know the other two. I agree it would be sweet to have the option of a fully off-roaded YZ or RM from factory, but that would not represent enough $$ earning for them to justify the different models, if it did, they would be already selling them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would they come out with a new 2smoke when they are getting rid of them all? This year Yamaha got rid of the PW80, which seemed like a bonehead move but whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two strokes can pass California green sticker emissions. Bombardier makes a snowmobile that has a 1000cc twin cylinder two stroke engine that is fuel injected. I believe Bombardier's web page states that it burns cleaner than competitors 4-stroke snowmobiles, and could easily pass green sticker requirements. The fuel and oil mixture needs to be injected into the cylinder after the piston is above the transfer ports, so the unburnt oil and fuel do not go out the exhaust.

Dirt bikes are now experimenting with fuel injection. So if the four strokes get fuel injection next year, and the manufacturers are able to pay for the development cost of fuel injection with all the four strokes they sell, they might be able to develop a fuel injection system that only needs different injector location and timing to make their two strokes emision legal. Two strokes may not be dead yet, perhaps someday we will all be talking about how the new two strokes are so much faster than the old four strokes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You hit the nail on the head with the emissions thing. 2 strokes do have their benefits, but in order to ride on public lands, new bikes must be "green sticker" (california term).

yeah in your twisted country. oh wait, i mean state.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Two strokes can pass California green sticker emissions. Bombardier makes a snowmobile that has a 1000cc twin cylinder two stroke engine that is fuel injected. I believe Bombardier's web page states that it burns cleaner than competitors 4-stroke snowmobiles, and could easily pass green sticker requirements. The fuel and oil mixture needs to be injected into the cylinder after the piston is above the transfer ports, so the unburnt oil and fuel do not go out the exhaust.

Dirt bikes are now experimenting with fuel injection. So if the four strokes get fuel injection next year, and the manufacturers are able to pay for the development cost of fuel injection with all the four strokes they sell, they might be able to develop a fuel injection system that only needs different injector location and timing to make their two strokes emision legal. Two strokes may not be dead yet, perhaps someday we will all be talking about how the new two strokes are so much faster than the old four strokes.

for this exact reason i hope KTM gets 2-stroke fuel inject technology from its partnership with Polaris.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guess what, there are about 49 other states that dont require a green sticker to ride. The 2 stroke is the most competative bike in the woods. Think i'll be going back soon, the hell with these 4 strokes.

Guess what... the major off-road mfg's estimate that California is about 20% of the market for their sales. I got similar info from two different dealers in Los Angeles. Quite honestly, we are their biggest customer. We ride year round and there are a ton of people.

We have CARB (California Air Resources Board), that manages the air quality and comes up with things like the new 2008 emission standards. We have to have these guys, there is just too many people here and the scale of the polution is a serious matter. I don't like the strict rules, but I see it as a necessary evil once I put my own selfish riding desires aside.

Other states wait for California to spend their money and finish their research, download a copy, then change the name at the top to adopt it as their own state rules (Texas, Arizona, etc...). Oregon will be next. Sorry to say, that California is having an effect on the other states. So its not "49 other states..."

If they do not sell in California, and sell big, then it may not make sense for them to be in the business of making bikes. That's why they have to make something that will work here first with the hope of selling it to others. CARB has decided that 2 strokes are dead. But then again, we call them "smokers" for a reason.

People talk about new technology 2-strokes that burn clean, but where are they? They don't exist until I see them on the showroom floor.

The next battle (current battle) is for sound. In California, we have no space and the riding areas and tracks are sometimes close to residential areas. 100+db pipes do not work here. Some may not realize it, but that battle may be just about over as well. There are places where you can't ride on your own private land because of the noise issue. I wish they would get on the Harley riders too. They make more noise than we do and ride right in highly populated areas.

The 2 stroke battle has been lost in California. No need to worry about it now. If you've got a loud, polluting 2-stroke, then hang on to it. They will become more and more rare as time goes on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People talk about new technology 2-strokes that burn clean, but where are they? They don't exist until I see them on the showroom floor.

.

Look at something other than dirt bikes when you are at the dealership next time. Dirt bikes are playing catch up when it comes to fuel induction technology. Lots of ATVs, snowmobiles, and street bikes are fuel injected, and some of the snowmobiles are two strokes.

It is no secret that the carbs on our bikes are pretty horrible at metering fuel at pretty much any throttle setting other than wide open. When the manufacturers finally put fuel injection on dirt bikes even the YZFs should easily be able to pass green sticker requirements, without all of the stupid crap that Yamaha has to do to the current carburated WR. Right now Yamaha (and others) need to produce a bike that doesn't even run right, just to pass green sticker requirements. That should not be the case with fuel injection, so I would think things will get better in another few years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we don't have any more space in cali because of all the people moving here from the other 49...stay in utah, arizona, or where ever else your from...come and visit then go home...just a native californian's 2 cents

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yeah in your twisted country. oh wait, i mean state.

It may be a little twisted.

We've got high taxes, high crime, low education levels, inadequate state government, bad traffic, smog, illegal immigrants, gangs, tree huggers and eco-terrorists, earthquakes, fires, expensive housing and a cost of living that is absolutely out of control.

Ah... there is no place like home!

I guess all of that is offset by the best weather in the country and (ahem...) YEAR ROUND RIDING ! (green sticker bikes anyways) How is it in Vermont?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
we don't have any more space in cali because of all the people moving here from the other 49...stay in utah, arizona, or where ever else your from...come and visit then go home...just a native californian's 2 cents

LOL... your comment should be in spanish. It's not people from Utah and AZ moving to Cali.

One of the best days of my life was driving the 5N through LA for the last time. I'm a Cali native who watched that state sink straight down the tubes for many years. Too bad cause it was an awesome place.

Anyway, 2 strokes are certainly not dead (well maybe in Cali). I see more and more 2 stroke threads on here everyday. I also had to call a few shops to find my new YZ, so they certainly are selling elsewhere. I hope they dont do away with the smokers. I paid $1500 less than for a 450 and feel I got a helluva lot better bike.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Reply with:

Sign in to follow this  

×