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"And the Price and performance of Mobil1 Racing 2T makes it the very best choice for me. Not because it is an American company...but rather because it is one of the best ester based fluids on the market, with a boat oil price."

Jay-

I happen to be in complete agreement about the Mobil1 Racing 2T. I have found that it provides excellent wear and corrosion resistance, while burning very cleanly with minimal combustion chamber and power valve deposits- all at an outstanding price.

There have, however, been some posters on this board who have questioned if the formulation of Mobil1 Racing 2T is actually ester based. Can you elaborate on this subject?

mobil1 is not ester-based...it's 5% polyalphaolefin.

the ester-type oil came out originally from france, i.e motul. mobil has it's own patented oil type, which is what we call PAO-type.

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Jay, would you roughly speculate then that the additive packages in Rotella 15-40 or 5-40 (either is fine by me) would rival the protection given by the esters say in Motul 5100. Granted the oil is being changed every 6 hours and the bike is not ridden that hard. No track time or hairscrambles.

Also, I just I decided to head to Nevada next week and do ride a that will start out at about 36 degrees F in the morning. I am running Motul 5100 15-50 right now and was considering getting some 10-40 for the cold start. Again, I'm weighing the ester thing.

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dtkiko,

I am curious where you get your information, or how you came to the conclusions you did?

First off, Mobil does not have a patent on PAO. Thre are differing process' used to mfg PAO that may well be patented, but many of the major oil players, as well as small time blenders use PAO in many of their applications.

However, many of these mfg's and blenders do buy their polyalphaolefin basestock from Exxon/Mobil...Amsoil for one.

And many formulators use esters in their oils....lots of different esters.

Motul may have been the first to use and market ester based fluids, but they are not alone anymore.

And just because an oil has 5% PAO would not disqualify it as an ester based fluid.

I am fairly convinced that there is absolutely NO PAO in Racing 2T. I have not seen any evidence of that being true, nor would it make much sense.

But just so you'll know...any motor oil that has PAO in it, will also contain esters. PAO alone will swell seals to a point that they can degrade. But esters tend to shrink the seal materials, and when used in conjunction with PAO the seals seem to stay as normal.

The MSDS sheet that Mobil provided prior to January 2005 showed that the fluid is indeed an ester based oil.

HYDROTREATED LIGHT DISTILLATE (64742-47-8) 15-25%

-------------- -----------

HYDROXYALKYL CARBOXYLIC ESTER 35-45%

The latest MSDS has changed, and now shows only these ingredients:

CALCIUM PHENATE 1 - 5%

-------------- -----------

HYDROTREATED LIGHT DISTILLATE (64742-47-8) 10 - 20%

When a mfg presents an MSDS to the public, he doesn't have to list all the ingredients of the fluid. Actually, he doesn't have to list any of the ingredients unless they happen to be carcinegens, or a known potentially health hazardous chemical.

Only on rare occasions will an oil mfg provide a full disclosure MSDS, and it will not be provided to the general public.

Now, if you call the Mobil Hotline, you may well be told that Racing 2T is the exact same formula as the former MX2T. And at first glance, that would be enough to satisfy most folks who were curious if they changed the formula.

But, how can it be the same formula as before when it was MX2T that had absolutely NO coloring added, yet now it clearly has red dye of some sort added to the mix.

The thing is...they help line man can tell you that the formula is the same, even though there are slight bit of differences, such as the addition of dye, and still be totally lawful in what he is telling us. Mfg's have some leeway in what they have to say, and how they have to say it.

Now, if the formula had changed to a point that the base fluid had drastically changed, they still wouldn't have to tell you anything specific about the changes, other than they occured.

I guess what I'm saying is this...the best guide we have to find out a fluids composition is the MSDS that the mfg provides. Rarely will this MSDS sheet contain all of what you are looking for...such as the final recipe, but it is often times a great guide as to the makeup of a fluid.

Like seeing PAO listed as an ingredient...the learned will be able to tell you that if there is PAO used, it more than likely will also contain esters...even if the MSDS doesn't tell us that.

Product Information Sheets are also a good way to find out a bit about a fluid, but we must remember that a PIS, although technical in nature, is a marketing tool. Sometimes it is the most concentrated on marketing tool the mfg has. He can lead and persuade the consumer into thinking what he wants the consumer to think simply by the words he chooses to use, and how he presents them. ALWAYS second guess a Product Information Sheet and NEVER take it as gospel truth. It is merely a guide, and not always forthcoming.

I can tell you that from what I found, as I was concerned about the formula change...Mobil1 Racing 2T has indeed remained as it were before Jan 2005. Viscosity is exactly the same, and the performance is the same. Even the smell has not changed one bit. The only change I can confirm, is that the fluid now has a red dye.

sr,

I think that in very cold temps you could possibly be better off with a lighter grade fluid like a 10w-40. Once the bike is up to temp, there wouldn't be much difference.

And yes, I think that the add packs in the Rotella fluids are very robust and will rival that of just about any heavy duty engine oil, which is what Rotella is.

Many call Rotella and similar oils "diesel" oils, but that isn't really the truth.

They are Heavy Duty Engine Oils...marketed toward the diesel fleet niche.

Even the wimpiest of engine oils, that gets changed out on a very frequent basis will rival the protection of the most expensive oil on the market, that is left in for extended periods of time.

Don't dicount an oil simply because it is not using an ester or any other synthetic. The additive packages of many group II organic oils will perform at the level of an ester, or even better.

And yes, I am a big fan of esters...but I also know that there are other items that can, and will, provide a superior oil without the use of esters.

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yup, you are right about the latest material safety data sheet (MSDS) of mobil1 and that PAO base stocks come from exxon mobil, and that motul was the first to invent/produce the ester-type of oil...

however, mobil1 belongs to category group IV type of lubricants which we know as PAO's and they lubricate via the viscous property of the oil, and not via the adsorption principle (admixture film in between contact surfaces) thru the polar ends of the esters.

only motul, elf (another subsidiary owned by total pertoleum, a french company), maxima (except its castor-based line of products), and silkolene are the only true-blue group V ester-types i've know so far, as shown in their product info labels and MSDS :thumbsup:

if mobil1 now belongs to group V to the best of my knowledge, then that is a big miracle :devil:

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yup, you are right about the latest material safety data sheet (MSDS) of mobil1 and that PAO base stocks come from exxon mobil, and that motul was the first to invent/produce the ester-type of oil...

however, mobil1 belongs to category group IV type of lubricants which we know as PAO's and they lubricate via the viscous property of the oil, and not via the adsorption principle (admixture film in between contact surfaces) thru the polar ends of the esters.

only motul, elf (another subsidiary owned by total pertoleum, a french company), maxima (except its castor-based line of products), and silkolene are the only true-blue group V ester-types i've know so far, as shown in their product info labels and MSDS :thumbsup:

if mobil1 now belongs to group V to the best of my knowledge, then that is a big miracle :devil:

Qualifying your claims as "to the best of my knowledge" should have been the first thing you posted.

First off...oils that have a base of PAO do not depend on it's viscosity to provide lubrication. Viscosity comes into play, but only to the extent of the required viscosity of a fluid used in an engine with certain clearances may be different from another engine with different clearances. The viscosity prowess of a fluid has little to do with it's lubricating ability, past the clearance of the engine parts issue.

You should study up and find out what the real advantages of PAO are in engine oils for certain applications. You will find that group IV PAO's and other group V base fluids do the exact same job as their group I-III counterparts do. They seperate the metals and create a buffer that keeps the metal parts from touching, and consequently wearing at one another.

The only other things that a synthetic base such as PAO can offer, is the ability to provide lower viscosities without the addition of easily sheared polymers. Also, the PAO and other synthetic bases can provide extended service, as they fight off heat degredation far better than their organic counterparts can.

Now the group V esters can do a bit more than PAO or other group V bases can, in that they perform past what a simple base oil fluid film can. Esters, as has been explained, work at the "barrier" level, similar to how the additives in the mix such as ZDDP, moly, antimone, or calcium work. They do not have to keep the flim between the metal parts to work, as all other basefluids do, including PAO.

Now, as I have stated, if there is PAO in the formula, then you can bet money that there is also an add of an ester. And esters do contribute to the lubrication of the parts past what any otehr base fluid can.

And to give you a bit more insight...

Yes, the logo of "Mobil1" has been synonomous with polyalphaolefin (PAO) base. Most everyone who has interest in oil will tell you that Mobil1 is a clear sign that the fluid made my Exxon/Mobil is in fact a PAO based product.

Thing is...Mobil has just recently went back to the drawing board, and decided to reformulate many of their Mobil1 lineup using group III hydroproccessed organic oil as their base. This puts them on the same level as Castrol, since Castrol's "full synthetic" lineup has always been formulated around group III hydrocracked petroleum oil, rather than a truely synthetic base like PAO.

Mobil doesn't have to tell the consumer this to keep their marketing and disclosures the same. And unless there were insiders, and those who take new oils apart for sport, we consumers would never know of half the things that the oil mfgs do.

Mobil even sued Castrol years ago for marketing their group III products as "full synthetics", but the courts found in Castrol's favor, and now anyone who produces an oil using group III base fluid can legally call it "full synthetic".

I think may would be suprized to see just how many oils they thought were made of one thing, end up being something else.

I know for a fact that all of the synthetic offerings of heavy duty engine oils, like Rotella T in the 5w-40 grade, are in fact formulated with group III organic oil. I think Motorex and many others also follow this court approved deception of consumers.

But, that is not to say that the group III organic oils do not provide the same level of performance as their molecularly sound group IV cousin.

It's been shown that these base oils do quite a great job, and on par with PAO. And since hydroproccessed organic oil is far cheaper to process than PAO, more and more formulators are using it.

If all you do is read marketing flyers and prod. info sheets to gather your information, then you will be flabbergasted with miracles, once you dig in and find out some truth.

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Qualifying your claims as "to the best of my knowledge" should have been the first thing you posted.

First off...oils that have a base of PAO do not depend on it's viscosity to provide lubrication. Viscosity comes into play, but only to the extent of the required viscosity of a fluid used in an engine with certain clearances may be different from another engine with different clearances. The viscosity prowess of a fluid has little to do with it's lubricating ability, past the clearance of the engine parts issue.

You should study up and find out what the real advantages of PAO are in engine oils for certain applications. You will find that group IV PAO's and other group V base fluids do the exact same job as their group I-III counterparts do. They seperate the metals and create a buffer that keeps the metal parts from touching, and consequently wearing at one another.

The only other things that a synthetic base such as PAO can offer, is the ability to provide lower viscosities without the addition of easily sheared polymers. Also, the PAO and other synthetic bases can provide extended service, as they fight off heat degredation far better than their organic counterparts can.

Now the group V esters can do a bit more than PAO or other group V bases can, in that they perform past what a simple base oil fluid film can. Esters, as has been explained, work at the "barrier" level, similar to how the additives in the mix such as ZDDP, moly, antimone, or calcium work. They do not have to keep the flim between the metal parts to work, as all other basefluids do, including PAO.

Now, as I have stated, if there is PAO in the formula, then you can bet money that there is also an add of an ester. And esters do contribute to the lubrication of the parts past what any otehr base fluid can.

And to give you a bit more insight...

Yes, the logo of "Mobil1" has been synonomous with polyalphaolefin (PAO) base. Most everyone who has interest in oil will tell you that Mobil1 is a clear sign that the fluid made my Exxon/Mobil is in fact a PAO based product.

Thing is...Mobil has just recently went back to the drawing board, and decided to reformulate many of their Mobil1 lineup using group III hydroproccessed organic oil as their base. This puts them on the same level as Castrol, since Castrol's "full synthetic" lineup has always been formulated around group III hydrocracked petroleum oil, rather than a truely synthetic base like PAO.

Mobil doesn't have to tell the consumer this to keep their marketing and disclosures the same. And unless there were insiders, and those who take new oils apart for sport, we consumers would never know of half the things that the oil mfgs do.

Mobil even sued Castrol years ago for marketing their group III products as "full synthetics", but the courts found in Castrol's favor, and now anyone who produces an oil using group III base fluid can legally call it "full synthetic".

I think may would be suprized to see just how many oils they thought were made of one thing, end up being something else.

I know for a fact that all of the synthetic offerings of heavy duty engine oils, like Rotella T in the 5w-40 grade, are in fact formulated with group III organic oil. I think Motorex and many others also follow this court approved deception of consumers.

But, that is not to say that the group III organic oils do not provide the same level of performance as their molecularly sound group IV cousin.

It's been shown that these base oils do quite a great job, and on par with PAO. And since hydroproccessed organic oil is far cheaper to process than PAO, more and more formulators are using it.

If all you do is read marketing flyers and prod. info sheets to gather your information, then you will be flabbergasted with miracles, once you dig in and find out some truth.

nice lecture, mate! nice novel, indeed :smirk:

so that doesn't make mobil1 either belonging to group IV and group V anymore to that effect, eh? as they already reformulated their PAO's with severely hydrocracked petroleum base oils, right?... to favor the reduction of processing cost in producing their oil line up.

then this is why group V ester-types are the best, like motul and the rest of them :thumbsup: they are now the only true-man made synthetics out there...

also remember that PAO's will never match the performance of esters...why? because they have higher friction coefficients, more so group IV oils mixed with group III (severely hydrocracked petroleum base)...and come to think of it why....:devil:

take it easy, mate :smirk: there is more to life than oils...

peace out...

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so that doesn't make mobil1 either belonging to group IV and group V anymore to that effect, eh? as they already reformulated their PAO's with severely hydrocracked petroleum base oils, right?... to favor the reduction of processing cost in producing their oil line up....

Oils formualted using hydroprocessed petroleum are group III oils, no matter how you slice it. If an oil is no longer formulated using PAO, which is the only group IV fluid there is, then it will be of the group that corrosponds to what the majority of it's base consists of.

then this is why group V ester-types are the best, like motul and the rest of them :thumbsup: they are now the only true-man made synthetics out there......
No, that point didn't make it so...and there are plenty of other fluids using the very same bases as those oils.

There is more to life than marketing rhetoric, mate. :devil:

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Oils formualted using hydroprocessed petroleum are group III oils, no matter how you slice it. If an oil is no longer formulated using PAO, which is the only group IV fluid there is, then it will be of the group that corrosponds to what the majority of it's base consists of.

No, that point didn't make it so...and there are plenty of other fluids using the very same bases as those oils.

There is more to life than marketing rhetoric, mate. :thumbsup:

wow, you're a genious, mate! :devil: didn't know you were involved during the actual conception and production of these varieties of oils, even on the marketing gimmikry :smirk: :smirk:

why not tackle the friction coefficient thing, then?

there's more to oil than marketing gimmikry, mate :bonk:

merry Christmas! peace out :cry:

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....And the Price and performance of Mobil1 Racing 2T makes it the very best choice for me. Not because it is an American company...but rather because it is one of the best ester based fluids on the market, with a boat oil price...

hi prof digilube,

you may now rectify this excerpt from your previous lecture...like you said mobil1 is now a combination of group III and group IV to offset the processing cost of making them...therefore not an ester-based :devil:

cheers! :thumbsup:

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dtkiko,

We can debate...and even argue if you like...but do try to stay on topic.

There are two different types of oil we are discussing here, one goes in the trany case and the other goes into the fuel.

It's the motor oil line that that Exxon/Mobil is replacing PAO with group III basestock. And apparently not all of them are being changed. My understanding is that the Racing 4T, and some of the ultra-low viscosity oils (0w-20) will remain PAO.

Mobil1 Racing 2T, is premix 2cycle oil. It is the product I am reffering to when I talk about an ester based 2T oil.

And I never said anything about any oil being a mixture of group III and group IV. I think you need to pay closer attention, both to what is posted, and what you read elsewhere.

I am fairly certain the whole center of your confusion is like many others', in that you have made the mistake of thinking that the term Mobil1 always means the product is made with PAO. That has been, and is, incorrect.

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I have a 99 YZ250 and in the owners manual it says use 10W30 motor oil in the crank case. Is it ok to just use valvoline or equivalent motor oil or do i have to use yamalube or some other type of motorcycle oil?

I've always used BelRay 85w Gear Saver, has alwasys worked good for me.:thumbsup:

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Jay,

If you don't mind, what is your background and involvement in the oil industry. I'm interested in how you acquired the depth you have. This is thread has been very informative - as long as the debating stays debating with dtkiko. When it switches to knife fight it gets less informative but you guys have been quite civil thus far.

Additionally, based on the previous information you have provided I think I will use Rotella of some sort in my tranny for my YZ 250 due to its availability and price, i.e. Walmart. I know no one can say if it will protect as well or better than Motul 5100 but it sounds like it is a safe choice for a bike that I am likely to keep for a long time. The only issue I have yet to resolve is whether Rotella 10-40 is equally as good for infrequent startups (sounds like it will be OK) and if it will be sufficient for the California 100 degree summer heat where I usually run Motul 15-50. I know it will be fine for the winter.

I also have to ask, for the record, what tranny oil do you use and why...availability? cost? performance?

Thx

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I use Yamalube 20w 40 in all my dirtbikes and atvs, 4 bikes, 2 quads, I switch off riding from bikes to quads alot so which ever my interests are for the month I change the crankcase oil after every weekend of riding no matter what, Yamalube has always worked perfectly and Ive never had any clutch or valve or engine problems whatsoever.

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At the risk of some flaming here but I am STILL a big fan of ATF in my 2 smoker. I've been using ATF since around 1976 and change my trans oil every other ride (along w/ cleaning my air filter) and have never.........EVER had a trans related failure. That's 30 years and probably 50 bikes. :thumbsup:

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...Mobil1 Racing 2T, is premix 2cycle oil. It is the product I am reffering to when I talk about an ester based 2T oil.

And I never said anything about any oil being a mixture of group III and group IV. I think you need to pay closer attention, both to what is posted, and what you read elsewhere....

good day prof,

we were all in the same wavelength, sir...and mobil1 racing 2T was well all the topic whether it's PAO-or ester-based. well, IT IS NOT AN ESTER-BASED...to make it clearer to you, sir, MOBIL1 RACING 2T IS NOT AN ESTER-TYPE oil.

you need to use "real" ester-types like motul 800 off-road 2T to see 1st hand what's an ester-type oil is...and if ever you will be claiming later that you have actually used one, then you should be able to tell us the difference between an ester-type and any other different types like mobil1 2T on how the engine responds.... LECTURE US ON THIS, PLS. WE LOVE TO HEAR YAH ON THIS... :thumbsup:

going back to the topic of the thread re tranny oil discussion, MOBIL1 TRANNY OILS ARE NOT ESTER-BASED EITHER :smirk:

if any one is interested with "real" ester-type of oil, then you may try using motul's product line. for premix 2T, you may try motul 600 and motul 800 off-road 2T. the 800 is intended for serious off-road racing. for tranny oil, you may try motul transoil expert.

to impressed upon you as well as to the others why "real" ester-type products are synonymous to motul, simply because MOTUL is the INVENTOR/ ORIGINATOR of ESTER-TYPE oils and YOU KNOW THIS IS NOT A MARKETING GIMMIKRY, MATE :devil::smirk:

trust that all is well with yah... :bonk:

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ok, so now that I have a sick and twisted understanding of oils of all kinds, and a major headache, what would you- digilube reccomend to use in a YZ250F? Im looking for a walmart available cheap in gallon jugs to change after every other ride.. I got the notion for some sort of rotella? What does the label say on this? Is it a synthetic or not.. thanks.

found this page, is this what your talking about? Which one would you reccomend on this page..the newest one, the synthetic etc. etc.-http://www.rotella.com/products/

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Wow i didnt know this post would get so much attention. Anyway, i picked up some Rotella today, and unfortunately its like 30 degrees here in michigan, so i suppose i will have to wait untill the spring to test it out. Thanks for all the info anyway

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hey, anyone, what kind of shell rotell do you use? rotella t synthetic 15w-40?

wait 'til RCannon advise you on this, man...he uses rotella but i don't know if he's using the synthetic one. better yet, send him a PM

can't help you on this as i'm using motul transoil expert.

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