Rotella's NEW Triple Protection 15W-40

I have done field testing for several of the manufacturers. Yes I know Digi's background and it is in industrial convyers. If I need to know how to setup or lube a industral conveyor, I will call Digi.

I don't know as much as some and more than most. If I don't know I can find out.

My motorcycle has oil filters to remove particiulates and debris from the oil. Yes, it is good to change on a regular basis but I find that many running cheap oil are changing way too often and that isn't good for the environment and my time is worth something also.

Dwight

You went through these arguments before.. Dude you need to CHILL, You are stating opinions that you have made your self. you have never actuly proved with any visable viable evidance to back such claims. So why do you allways put other people down as if they don't know anything. This digilube guy just because he maybe in convayers doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about engines. You blind your self with your own indulgance that you can't see that maybe you're not allways right.

You can state your OPINION and albeit. How ever Unless you can prove 100% that you're right, which you will NEVER be able to do so please STOP putting other peoples opinions down and trying to make them look inferior to your self.

Now since I've said this. This dwight guy will be trying to get me banned again.

Good point Dwight. most of us do tend to change our oil too often. We do need to take into account environmental considerations.

I know I'm not alone on this one. I will run my xr650r in baja for 600 miles in one weekend. I've run Rotella white jug in all my bikes since 03 and have never had one break due to friction. Dwight, you are obviously a stud in the motorcycle world however I feel there are way to many people who run their shit really hard while using Rotella to argue against it being a great oil.

My experience has been that the average rider doesn't even change their oil, even once a year! They MIGHT think about it when it gets really dirty.......

I sold a pair of bikes to my neighbor two years ago, and did a fresh oil change before he picked them up. That's the last change they had! I have offered to do it for him many times, but he just isn't interested in being bothered........

And, I have two buddies who have 450R's. Here you have a SIGHT GLASS where you can see your oil level and how dirty it is every time you stop during a ride. Last ride, their oil was visibly very dirty.......did they even care.........

Good reson why these folks more than anybody, should be running a high quality synthetic........

Recon... but odds are they won't...

Those folks that do really lousy maintenance do us a favor by performing research on "how long will this this work when not taken care of properly?"

It is amazing that most of the time their bikes run "well enough."

It is amazing how well modern machines work. It is testimony to all the components involved, including modern oils.

I personally am glad all the different oil factions exist here on TT. It would be a benefit to collect the data from "user group" and see what it tells us.

That said, I don't think I will end up in Hell if I don't choose the right oil. I may pay for an expensive unnecessary repair, but that's the price I pay for running the experiment.

BTW,

I've run both Delo 400 and Rotella T in my 02 YZ280F. (I've amassed 2,400 miles on it since the bore job with good results.) I tried Amsoil Motorcycle oil in the YZ and found that the clutch would slip very easily, however our 01 KTM 520 did fine with it. Our old XR's seem to pump synthetics right out the exhaust, so I switched back to dyno oils and the oil consumption stopped..

So far, I've only used Motorex synthetic in the 07 450EXC.

From my limited experience, different bikes seem to have slightly different requirements.

RH

Here's the question I posed to Rotella's ask the expert department-

I am concerned about the re-formulation of Rotella to the "triple protection" package to handle the ULSD, how will this affect it's protection package for my motorcycle with a wet clutch??? I am speaking of dirt bikes that rev over 10,000 RPM's for extended periods.

Thank You

And here's the response I recieved-

ULSD really has little to do with the choice of oil for lubrication purposes, and the introduction of ULSD fuels is coincidentally occurring at the same time as API CJ-4 formulations, although both are required for '07 big rig diesel engines.

Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oils with Triple Protection Technology (the API CJ-4 formulations) would carry the same instructions for motorcycle use as our previous formulations. Though Shell Rotella T oils have no specific approvals for motorcycle use, they do not contain any friction modifiers that would interfere with the operation of the wet clutch. Assuming the viscosity is correct for your bike, Shell Rotella T oils should perform well.

Thank you for your interest in Shell Lubricants!

Regards,

Edward Calcote

Staff Chemist, Shell Lubricants US Technical Information Center

http://www.shell-lubricants.com/

Dwight Rudder, you have no idea of my background, and you really have no business implying that you do.

And why must you continue to insist that motor oils have been degrading over the years? That is far from fact. The truth is that with every upgrade of certification, both passenger car oils and heavy duty universal oils, have been improving. The standards get tougher and tougher to meet, and it only stands to reason that fluids are also improving to be able to meet these increasingly tough standards.

Yes the newer CJ-4 criteria for universal oils requires a ceiling of .12% zinc content, but that is only .02% lower than the current zinc content of Rotella 15w-40.

And the wear properties of the oil must perform bettter than the previous fluid to meet the newer CJ-4 requirements.

Also ash content has been reduces with the new CJ-4 standards, which is another upgrade of the fluid.

You guys who claim these oils are getting worse and worse need to study up and stop providing folks with nothing but your obviously misguided information.

Either that or, state what you will...but qualify it as simply your opinion, and nothing based on any research or facts of any sort.

Being sponsored by an oil hardly makes one a "field tester" of products.

And racing a bike hardly qualifys one to provide any sort of intelligent input on oil dynamics, past reporting on how the bike runs.

Although these sponsored riders often have the misconception that they are actually some sort of an authority.

But I suppose in our waning years we tend to grasp at the last straws of stardom and recognition, even if they are dubious credentials at best ....

But I suppose in our waning years we tend to grasp at the last straws of stardom and recognition, even if they are dubious credentials at best ....

This borders on the edge of a personal attack. I WON'T tolerate it.

Rather than attacking Dwight, why not post some technical information backing up your assertions?

Your post states "You guys who claim these oils are getting worse and worse need to study up and stop providing folks with nothing but your obviously misguided information". I see nothing from you that refutes what they are saying, only your opinion.

How does that make you any different from them?

I have done field testing for several of the manufacturers. Yes I know Digi's background and it is in industrial convyers. If I need to know how to setup or lube a industrial conveyor, I will call Digi.

Seems to me he recognizes your expertise in your field. Please show us your expertise in the motorcycle oil field.

And why must you continue to insist that motor oils have been degrading over the years?

Prove to us that oils are better than they used to be. My understanding, possibly erroneous, is some of the new oils are formulated for reduced emissions which has compromised some other aspects of the oil.

Instead of attacking people, how about you enlighten us?

Rather than attacking Dwight, why not post some technical information backing up your assertions?
Dwight rarely gets involved in oil issues on this board, but often does on other boards...and I have never, not once, seen him provide any credible information that would back up his assertions. All opinion, and IMO, misguided opinion.

And he does not hesitate to point out what he thinks is my "expertise", which is always a dergatory exercise, as he only states my credentials in an attempt to disqualify my offerings. (no matter how it is sugar coated or presented, that is a personal attack)

I think it is fair, and clear, to say that he is an expert at riding motorcycles in certain venues.

I agree with you, Ud...we should provide more than a simple opinionated spout off when concerning these issues.

It is comman knowledge that motor oils have gotten better and better over the years. I could provide you with the results of researching the specific test procedures and how they have become increasingly more stringent, and have placed greater, and greater demands on the oil for it to pass the certification standards. But it all boils down to what most folks assume, and all lubrication experts know, in that oils are improving, and will continue to improve in performance.

As for proof to my assertions that motor oils have been improving with every new certification evolution...all one has to do is reasearch the standards of these certifications and the proof is there. I suggest those who assert differently carry the burden of proving their claims, especially since they go against the grain of what is already comman knowledge.

It seems that there is contention that motor oils that carry certifications newer than the SG types have lost "the good stuff" if you will, when a reduction of zinc and phosphorus was required as part of the Energy Conserving certification.

The misconceptions are that the oils were less able to protect, since they had less of the anti-wear(AW) additive ZDDP(zinc dithiophosphate, an AW additive compound that contains both zinc and phosphorus). And that the additives used, in an attempt to bring the frictional qualities of the oil back up to what is was before the ZDDP removal, are detrimental to the action of a wet clutch, and would cause the mechanisim to noticibly slip and allow a loss of performance.

The facts are that the additive ZDDP has always been a favorite of oil manufacturers because of it's great ability to perform well as an anti-wear/scuff protectant, and because it is CHEAP.

It was known that there were several other additives and compounds that could be used instead of ZDDP that would allow the oil to perform at the same level, but these additives were either more expensive to produce, or the availability was not to the required levels. But with the reduction of ZDDP, it meant that some of these less favorable (profit wise) additives were now going to have to be used, if the formulator wanted to continue to pass the latest more stingent certifications.

Specifically, boron and calcium were being used in increasing ppm's, as were soluable organo-metallic compounds like zinc/molybdenum/antimony dialkyldithiocarbamates (this is where the misguided moly scare originated).

But the additive that is most used are synthetic esters, which if truth be known, are probably being used today in most all certified engine oils on the shelf.

And these additional components were needed for the EC certification, as the main jist of the thing is the reduction of friction and increased fuel mileage, and the test for the friction charectoristics of the oil was harder to pass than the previous certifications criteria.

And as science and chemestry tends to be evolving things...the newer formulations that came to be due to a change in certification requirements, forced the study of lubrication protection even further, and it is being found that interactions of certain components are creating conditions not once known about. As a result, tribologists are finding that not only will some of the additives, not once used in abundence, would perform quite well...they are also finding that interactions between some of these additives are yielding even further advancements and understanding of how to better protect metal from wear.

One such study done in 1999 found that interaction between ZDDP and Calcium Borate yielded a much better mechanism for protection than either of the adds could provide on their own.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/qm2l338jj3045324/?p=66ac287246e64eaab718e2077468609eπ=3

...The main result, when ZDDP and CB additives are used together, is the formation of a calcium and zinc borophosphate glass tribofilm. The overall data confirm the general friction‐induced glass model as being a unifying concept that explains the mechanisms of antiwear additives under boundary lubrication. Moreover, the analytical results strongly suggest the role of viscous flow of the magma state glass tribofilm above its glass transition temperature to be a main contribution to the antiwear mechanism under mild wear conditions.

The recent update of standards to universal heavy duty engine oils, like Rotella, means the reduction of ZDDP in its formulations just as the EC criteria did for passanger car oils. And the reason is the same...to reduce the chance of fouling the elements of a catalytic converter. There is also a requirement to reduce sulfated ash to a level of what is acceptable for MA motorcycle specific standards. As ZDDP can contribute to ash, simply the reduction of it alone helped things that concern bikers, such as ring land buildup.

But just as the EC certification did for PCMO's, it is now doing for HDEO's, and that is improving their ability to protect engines better, and for longer periods of time.

Why is it that I need to prove this assertion, when ALL of the heavy duty universal oil manufacturers are stating that their oil is now better han the previous catagory oil? Surely their assertions carry more weight than that of those who state that these oils are being downgraded...when they have absoultely nothing at all...ziltch, zero, nada...to back up their asserions?

No, these types of myths started with the EC certification, and they continue today with CJ-4. More a result of folks misunderstanding the information provided them by sometimes misleading marketing propaganda, and also by taking the warnings and myths provided by the less learned, and simply accepting the misinformation they pass along as fact.:lol:

http://www.apicj-4.org/faqs.html

http://www.delobike.com/Chev%20CJ4%20Q_A.pdf

http://www.shell-lubricants.com/CJ4/cj4_faq.html

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=721645&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Your reply is exactly what I was looking for. A reasoned response independent of other members opinions, a proper way to respond.

I spent a few hours last year reading about the auto vs motorcycle controversy and I believe that you are correct. The motorcycle oil manufacturers have convinced some people that there is a difference.

Rekluse, a manufacturer of auto clutches, recommends Delo 400 or Rotella T. I assume they know more than I do and they are recommending an automotive oil for clutch life. My assumption is they believe the friction modifiers in this oil are not harmful to the friction plates. On the contrary, to recommend these oils tells me they have had more problems with MC rated oils versus the auto oils based on experience.

I'm aware this is anecdotal, but I rode my Rekluse equipped 02 400exc over 20k miles using any auto oil laying around, including a 50 mile stint with ATF and water. The engine was never taken apart and the bike is still in use today by the kid I sold it to. Either KTM builds the best motorcycle engine in existence or it really didn't make any difference what oil I ran in it. I think the key was reasonable oil change intervals.

I've heard the argument that the motorcycle engines run hotter so they must have motorcycle specific oils. I seriously doubt you have oil temperatures that exceed those dealt with in turbo charged cars. My Buick GN will turn a good synthetic oil into a thin solid black substance within 200 miles if I run it hard.

Too many people base their opinions on past experience, "I've used brand X for the last 20 years and it's the best there is", and are totally unwilling to look at newer and better products or ways of doing things. It's their loss.

Here's my perspective/history on this subject...

I started using DELO 400 back in 2001 when I got my 99 Husaberg FC400 on the advice of a guy named Dale Lineaweaver. Dale ran Husaberg motors in flat track and DELO 400 was the only thing he found that would give him any kind of life out of the valve train. Worked for somebody else, it worked for me.

I just continued to run it in my bikes. When I developed z-Start, I was still running DELO and it worked great. After we started selling some z-Starts, we got some calls complaining about how the clutch was performing. Complaints about clutch squeal (a vibration in the clutch as it is engaging), too much slip, inconsistent engagement, we couldn't figure it out.

One guy in particular complained that his stalled, dragged and squealed real bad. We went over everything and it all seemed fine. I sent him my whole clutch assembly out of my bike (basket, frictions, drives, center, z-Start) and he sent me his. Mine worked bad in his bike, his worked great in my bike. The only other difference I could think of was the oil. I had him put some DELO it, he called me back and told me it was perfect with the new oil.

When we first started selling the clutch for the KTM-RFS we got lots of calls about clutch squeal. These bikes have a tendency towards clutch squeal even with the stock clutch and the problem really is harmless, just annoying. We suggested people try DELO. We'd have people call back absolutely stunned that an oil could make that much difference in how their clutch worked. It became a bit of a joke around the shop. Search here on Thumpertalk or KTMTalk, there has been lots of banter about people finding improvement in auto-clutch performance with diesel engine oils.

We did test about a half-dozen brands of motorcycle specific oil, ATF, and some automotive oils. Some worked fine, some slipped noticeably more, some got the clutch to squeal. None seemed to be a noticeable improvement over the DELO.

I was getting a bit concerned about recommending an oil that was designed for big diesel engines for all our customers. I called Chevron, got bounced around a bit and finally talked to an engineer that said he's not allowed to specifically recommend DELO for an application other than diesel engines but for anti-wear and good shear load protection (what transmissions face), DELO is an excelllent choice.

I met an oil engineer at the Dirt Rider 24 hour test a couple years ago. He had a brand-new 525 KTM that we installed a clutch in. I spoke to him at length about oils. He said that the diesel engine oils are generally the best at anti-wear and long oil life. This is because they are under a lot of scrutiny by fleet managers of diesel trucks that do lots of oil samples and analysis and long-term testing to find an oil that minimizes the cost of running a truck 1 million miles down the road. He didn't really know what was in the diesel engine oils that would make the clutch work better in a motorcycle. He had been using and planned to continue to use diesel engine oil in his motorcycles.

A while back we got news that Chevron had added friction modifiers to their DELO. I called Chevron, talked to an engineer that said it probably would not effect clutch performance. I was not happy with "probably", did some more research, talked to Shell about Rotella and started using and recommending Rotella. Lots of people I know continued using the DELO without any problems. The Schucks around the corner carries Rotella in gallons but Delo only in quarts, so I'm sticking with Rotella for now.

I did contact Shell about their new Triple protection formula, it does not contains any friction modifiers. Our official recommendation is to use what your motorcycle manufacture recommends, change your oil frequently and recycle your oil. If your oil is not giving you good clutch performance, try Rotella.

What Al, you monitor any mention of Rekluse? :lol:

I still have the prototype clutch cover in my 04 400exc that you machined a different angle towards the outside of the top plate to keep the clutch from sticking. It seems to work more or less OK but it isn't as smooth as the unit in my 200exc. Was this the final solution to the RFS units to keep them from sticking or were there other changes to the unit? If so, I would like to update mine.

Thanks, Bill Wade.

Think about it. Motorcycle Racing 4stk. Engines normally carry less than a quart of oil. This oil has to lubricate not only the engine and top end but the gearbox and clutch in most cases. Motorcycle engines also run hotter and at a much higher constant RPM. I seriously doubt that a auto oil can stand up to this type abuse. Auto oil has changed for the worse over the years as they remove stress and high pressure additives like ZDDP, because of EPA rules and Catalitic converters. I for one think a lot more of my time and my $8000 motorcycle . Good Synthetic motorcycle oil with the JASO MA rating is actually cheap insurance. How much will you actually save per year by using cheap oil providing that you don't have a catastrophic failure due to the cheap oil ? How much did you save if you have an engine failure because you overheated your engine and the cheap oil didn't stand up to the abuse ? Say you change your oil every single month. Most don't but say that if they did. Say they saved $4 on a quart of oil. $4 X12 = $48 per year. How much does replacing a clutch due to bad oil ? That would be the cheapest outcome of oil induced failure if it happens. Many people change their cheap automotive oil every single ride. Now how much do they save ? Isn't their time worth something ? Do they replace oil filters every oil change ? How much do they really save ? Is it worth it ?

Just something to think about.

Happy New Year,

Dwight

Inexpensive oil doesn't always equal cheap oil. Just because it is inexpensive, doesn't always mean it underperforms an expensive oil. I believe the Rotella oil is formulated for diesel engines which are also under a very harsh enviroment. It may protect equally or better than a JASO MA rated oil. Rotella may not be interested in a JASO MA rating since it is mostly used in diesel engines. I would think that big rig drivers would use the best protecting oil they can get to protect their Rig's when they put hundreds of thousands of miles on them. I think Rotella has been used in enough MX bikes for enough years to show there isn't any problems using it. Just my 2 cents worth.

youngwerth,

I think that Chevron has to remain on the same plane as you when you make your official recommendation. (we know CYA always comes into play)

I think it was with the CI-4plus cert. that they started adding MoDTC to the mix, as many shelf car oils as well as moto specific oils do. There have been published tests (Rotax being one, and I can't find it) showing that if an oil is ladened with more than ~700-800ppm of MoDTC, AND the oil has sheared down to water, it is possible that the clutch will slip. But then most any motorcycle clutch will slip if the oil has sheared all the way down and allowed the plates to glaze, no matter it's additive chemistry.

The CI-4 rated Delo 400 15w-40 had ~195ppm MoDTC, and I am curious to see if the level changes at all with the CJ-4. I'd be willing to bet that a VOA of the new formula would show the same level of moly, and less ppm's of zinc and phosphrus, but an increase in boron and calcium.

Dwight,

What you should also think about is the blanket recommendations you give.

I have already shown you either here, or at other forums, where you can't tell the difference in one oil from another chemistry wise, and the only distinction is that one touts being able to pass JASO MA and the other not even being marketed towards the moto niche.

Both almost identical in makeup. Only big difference is the marketing spin placed on them, and the price.

So, if there are oils that are not moto specific, and yet are chemically identical to their heavy duty oil counterpart (which is actually a misnomer because Moto specific oils ARE heavy duty engine oils just like the so called "diesel" oils are)...why would anyone want to risk their investment on the words of a marketeer? Or the words of some internet blogger?

The fact is that just as any other products out there..some are better than others, and a simple marketing badge does nothing but lead you to "think" things.

Case in point...

Mobil1 Racing 4T is a very, very robust heavy duty engine oil. It is formulated with an extreme additive package, and utilizes the best of basestocks.

To place some sort of product like it's Motorex counterpart on the same level is simply not fair to Mobil, as they have a real heavy duty oil, and Motorex is marketing a mediocre group III base fluid.

Mobil Delvac, Rotella T, and Delo all show they are better built oils than the Motorex synthetic, and carry MUCH lighter pricetags.

To tout MA rated fluids only just isn't good advice, as many of them are not up to task. Besides, a large majority of oils you see touted for motorsports are not certifed to begin with. They simply state that they can pass...or that they meet the requirements. You must take the formulators word on this, as they have not certified their oil.

Also, IF a man like Dale Lineweaver recommends a product, would you go into your speil about MA Rated fluids only, or would you ask the man questions and try to learn something?

Sorry, I don't agree much with Dale Lineweaver , nor do I agree with him on oils. He tears down his engines on a regular basis also. You mention Mobil 1 4T racing oil, that is a motorcycle specific oil. I did find an interesting article on oil . ( http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/ ) Seemed to be unbiased , I agree with a lot and disagree with some of their findings. You can read into it what you will. Digi, is right about Motorex but the oil he speaks of is their cheapest "Synthetic" oil . The Top Speed 4T is a Type III base lube. I seriously doubt their more expensive oils are but I couldn't find the info online. I had been told by their Represenative that Motorex was PAO and Ester based oils. Obviously not all but probably most. I personally lean toward Maxima's products but I still think there are serious differences between automotive and motorcycle oils and I prefer to stick with the higher quality motorcycle specific synthetic oils. I just suggest you pick a good brand of motorcycle oil and stick with it. The savings on using automotive oils is not significant over the course of a year to warrent cutting corners.

IMHO,

Dwight

Damn Dwight, you got fires going on all over the place. I do admire your persistence and your ability to never waiver on your opinion despite mounting evidence that points the opposite way.

Damn Dwight, you got fires going on all over the place. I do admire your persistence and your ability to never waiver on your opinion despite mounting evidence that points the opposite way.

I personally don't see the evidence pointing any way but the way I am going. If you do then you are seeing a lot more benefit than I do on using the cheaper oils . I can't see the reasoning myself. How much does your motorcycle cost ? Cost of rebuilding a engine ? Rebuilding a clutch ? Savings on using non approved automotive type oil over the course of a year verses using a high quality motorcycle racing synthetic ? I don't pay much attention to DLjay as he just likes to argue.

Cher'o,

Dwight

Sorry, I don't agree much with Dale Lineweaver , nor do I agree with him on oils.

Of course you don't, but you should.

Dale is only one of the most respected tuners in the motorsports industry. What qualifications do you hold that would allow you to credibly disagree on such issues with a proffessional engineer and tuner such as Lineweaver?

:lol:

I've yet to see you priovde any sort of backing up of your assertions.

And as many times as you chime in on the subject, isn't it about time you provided a bit of something more than just your opinion?

Perhaps folks like Lineweaver are all wet...and I am willing to concede that I am wrong..but only if you can provide me with at least a little bit of evidence that would back up your assertions. Do you have anything past your opinion to bring to the table here?

Of course you don't, but you should.

Dale is only one of the most respected tuners in the motorsports industry. What qualifications do you hold that would allow you to credibly disagree on such issues with a proffessional engineer and tuner such as Lineweaver?

:lol:

I've yet to see you priovde any sort of backing up of your assertions.

And as many times as you chime in on the subject, isn't it about time you provided a bit of something more than just your opinion?

Perhaps folks like Lineweaver are all wet...and I am willing to concede that I am wrong..but only if you can provide me with at least a little bit of evidence that would back up your assertions. Do you have anything past your opinion to bring to the table here?

Jay, I don't feel it nessesary to prove anything to you. There is no way you would agree even if I did. As for Linenweaver, I never even heard of him till a couple years ago when he was personally attacking friends of mine on the internet. He was trying to leverage them in to paying him for being a "CONSULTANT" and they too had never heard of him until then. He told them that he would make sure that they wouldn't make it without him. He made good on his threats by passing on half truths and slander.

He is fairly well known in N. Calif. as an engine builder mostly of short track and flat track Husaberg engines, but hardly at all in the east. If not for the Husaberg website I doubt if I would have heard about him other than being asked by my friend if I had ever heard of him. I guess he builds good Husaberg engines. But personally , I just don't care for his tactics and demeanor .

Have a nice day,

Dwight

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