Too low of oil, Did I ruin it? XR650R?

[J_T]

Hey All, its been a miserable day!

I was out for a nice ride. actually on my way to change my oil at a buddy's garage when after running great at high RPM it lost power. and came to a stop. There were no strange noises. just a lack of response to the throttle until it died when I pulled in the clutch. It would not start back just by letting the clutch out while moving and when it came to stop I tried to crank it and it took my entire weight to push the kick starter slowly.

We picked it up drained the oil and it was very low! but no metal shavings. pulled the spark plug and tried to crank. it kicked better but was still stiffer than when the plug was in. I poured a little oil in the cylinder and replaced the oil and kicked it without the plug and it started to loosen up but nothing near normal. I pulled the clutch cover and everything is free and moving as should (no locked up bushing)

Does this sound like I "locked it up" I was hauling when it was running... occasionally touching the stock revlimiter in top gear so I thought it was the coil that burned and it was electrical when it died but with a stiff kick starter I'm thinking it was my dumb butt and lack of oil!

I can kind of get it to turn over...if I can get it started am I out of the woods? or is the damage done?

Could it hurt it more me trying to get it started?

where do I start in looking for problems. split the case?

I feel competent to work on it as long as no machining is required!

I may have to call on BWB63 (Bruce) to get advice on how to build it right now? (the reliable 680 setup, like manufactures and part numbers so I can build a tried and true engine.)

Its late and I'm at a loss since I have budgeted for this!

Any help is appreciated! please!

Thank you

Justin T.

[HeadTrauma]

Sounds like you probably scuffed the piston pretty bad and it was really close to full seizure. At the very least I would pull the head and cylinder and see what got hurt. Take a real close look at the valvetrain, too. The top end is usually the first to starve when the oil runs out.

[yammx]

Hey All, its been a miserable day!

I was out for a nice ride. actually on my way to change my oil at a buddy's garage when after running great at high RPM it lost power. and came to a stop. There were no strange noises. just a lack of response to the throttle until it died when I pulled in the clutch. It would not start back just by letting the clutch out while moving and when it came to stop I tried to crank it and it took my entire weight to push the kick starter slowly.

We picked it up drained the oil and it was very low! but no metal shavings. pulled the spark plug and tried to crank. it kicked better but was still stiffer than when the plug was in. I poured a little oil in the cylinder and replaced the oil and kicked it without the plug and it started to loosen up but nothing near normal. I pulled the clutch cover and everything is free and moving as should (no locked up bushing)

Does this sound like I "locked it up" I was hauling when it was running... occasionally touching the stock revlimiter in top gear so I thought it was the coil that burned and it was electrical when it died but with a stiff kick starter I'm thinking it was my dumb butt and lack of oil!

I can kind of get it to turn over...if I can get it started am I out of the woods? or is the damage done?

Could it hurt it more me trying to get it started?

where do I start in looking for problems. split the case?

I feel competent to work on it as long as no machining is required!

I may have to call on BWB63 (Bruce) to get advice on how to build it right now? (the reliable 680 setup, like manufactures and part numbers so I can build a tried and true engine.)

Its late and I'm at a loss since I have budgeted for this!

Any help is appreciated! please!

Thank you

Justin T.

If you have an endoskope than look into the cylinder and check the barrel for any damages, if not remove the cyl. head.

[martinfan30]

I am 100% with HeadTrauma on this. You probably are OK on the bottom end, but are near seizure on the piston.

Good time for that 680 kit!

[suharianu]

i would check compression before tear up.

[scalejockey]

what main jet do you have??

Oh, and ditto on the cam check if it was an oil problem.

[zimak]

Yeah first thing first. Easy and cheap do a compression test.

[J_T]

what main jet do you have??

I am running the Edelbrock QS, 19 needle,

I guess My signature is no longer visible, sorry!

Its a 2000 XRR that was trail only until last year when I dual sported it. I have a hot cam stage 1 on it and the original BigGun race exhaust and header.

My last valve adjustment was 100 miles ago, the day I decided I need an oil change and had to get a filter. (when it was trail only the oil was changed every spring and fall no matter what and mentally I was on that schedule...but I have been riding it much more and my last oil change was July. I know I'm making excuses because I am embarrassed.)

I looked at it this afternoon and took the head cover off and everything appears OK but I didn't remove the cam to look at where it rides and any measurements.

I don't have a scope so I couldn't look at the cylinder walls but judging by the loss of power and the fact some oil in the cylinder helped a little...I'm thinking I messed the piston and wall up! Will take loose to have a look...BUT if it requires any machining...my local shop doesn't like when I bring in pieces...and ask him to finish it. (I don't blame him) and I saw that Bruce said the 680 piston required clearancing, with Barnum's Cam (or stage 2 if I'm going 680 and not my stage 1). as well if its out I should probably get the valves taken care of as well? I'll call the shop tomorrow and talk to them to get their input.

I feel competent to install parts...but if clearancing and machining is required...I'm going to let them do it all so if something happens I don't get blamed!

I was searching and found the post, XR650R- Building 680 want some input! But a good descriptive thread went down hill.

Lets hypothetically say I was going for a bigger...RELIABLE, upgreade (where I check the oil).

what parts can I do...what is the machine shop needed for?

I have been following bruce's build-up and comments since I bought my bike and it sounds like a Killer YET reliable setup? if anyone knows what I am talking about please comment!

is the stock crank balanced with new rod and piston enough for lower end?

What is Nikasil?

I know alot of questions...(I guess my tax return is spoken for now!)

I want to put an hour meter on a rebuilt motor, good one around?

[scalejockey]

The reason i asked about the main jet is that i've seen a 600 seize on just the piston because of a lean main jet and running down the freeway with no other damage on the cam.(the guy took some bad advice to jet it for high elevation and he went way too far)

[J_T]

The reason i asked about the main jet is that i've seen a 600 seize on just the piston because of a lean main jet and running down the freeway with no other damage on the cam.(the guy took some bad advice to jet it for high elevation and he went way too far)

I'm going to look into this...I was running real low on fuel...and just thought I'd get fuel a few miles up the road....my first thought was I ran out of fuel or my coil went out because of the lost of power and it quit when I pulled in the clutch. and with me running +95mph...if I ran out of fuel it would give me the same condition right because it would keep trying to run off of the minimum fuel coming from my pumper carb? (the first thing I did was lean my bike over and let my big IMS tank flow to the petcock side) but when I tried to kick it and it was very slugish...I got scared and called a friend so I wouldn't do any more damage!

I'm going to do what I can to start it with fresh oil and some cylinder lube. if it frees it up I'm going to let it idle and warm up. I'll cut it off and see how tight it is and I'll check the compression as well to see what it is...and if there is any leak-down in addition!

If its not holding compression...I'm taking the engine along with a description of what I want done to a machine shop to have it rebuilt RIGHT! (and I'll check the oil after every ride while hot!)

Any other suggestions?

[scalejockey]

If the lean out was the problem(most likely)don't go any farther,you'll have aluminun on the cylinder wall and any attempt to start will do more damage.If your lucky you can remove the aluminum from the cylinder(maratic acid)and hone it out and install a new piston.

[trxcr]

My Xr 600 did the same thing once (It was low oil) and I had to replace the piston and cam, I think I had to get it bored too, but I can't 'member. It didn't use much oil before so I didn't check it very often and I was on a three day trip where I rode it pretty hard in soft dirt so it must have used more than usaul.

[yan67]

whoa! too much like what happened to me J T ! first of all, by running it that low on oil you have weakened the thrust washer on the crank and they will faill on the next high speed high rpm journey you go on. this will possibly cause catostrophic failure resulting in broken cases. i have been through all of this with mine. just do it right and replace the crank. i worked as a honda shop tech for quite awhile and know the safe way to do this is to assume the crank is hooped, because 99% of the time it will fail later on. look at it this way, the 680 is way cool, and powerful. so you might as well have a crank in it. mine is now a 680 with a lot of other goodies. anything you need to know just ask, i would love to help where i can. YAN

[J_T]

ugh...I was hoping the lean condition would be a positive sign...but it doesn't sound that the repair is any easier...or cheaper.

BUT what i just read about needing a crank? If mine isn't exactly seized...is my crank still toast? its not just a matter of pulling it pressing on new bearings. and checking the dimensions from rod wear? (from my comments you can probably tell I don't know the inside of this motor) can the thrust washer be repaired/replaced before it goes to prevent sacrificing the entire crank?

my estimates myself calculating was near $1200 and that is keeping crank. bore/sleeve cylinder, Rod, piston, Stainless Steel valve and still skimping on labor. I imagine a crank is almost doubling the price?

Yan67...I'm open to suggestions.

Below is what I was anticipating;

A) Increase Intake valve by 1mm. Stock on exhaust (BWB63 went 3mm on Intake and 1mm on exhaust but said if he was going to do it again...he would only go 1mm on intake and stock size on exhaust??? I'm open to suggestions.)

? Stainless steel Valves and hardware

C) I was going to look into Barnum's Pro Mid Cam (slightly larger lift than Stage 2 Hot Cam), or the stage 2 hotcams

D) Over-Bored and sleeved Cylinder

E) 102.4mm x 100 11:1 Wiseco Piston slight machining for Cam's larger Lift, if going with barnums

F) Was recommended a XR600R Carrillo Rod (because has larger bearing than XR650R????)

G) Balanced on Stock Crank

H) New Timing Chain.

All this on top of the machine shop wants to go through it to "make sure nothing else is needed" and that will cost a few hours. but I don't blame them to assemble it and me have it fail for something soon afterwards!

[J_T]

If the lean out was the problem(most likely)don't go any farther,you'll have aluminun on the cylinder wall and any attempt to start will do more damage.If your lucky you can remove the aluminum from the cylinder(maratic acid)and hone it out and install a new piston.

where does the aluminum come from...I thought the Cylinder was sleeved in a aluminum housing. But if you talk about removing it from the cylinder with the acid...you must mean from the piston skirts or from something else? I guess I won't start it...just pull it and take it to the man along with my first born...maybe he can work for him for the next 10 years.

[HeadTrauma]

The cylinder sleeve is iron. The piston is aluminum. When the piston overheats from a lean mixture, it expands and the bore gets tighter. This causes more heat, more expansion, and aluminum starts depositing on the cylinder...causing more friction, more heat, more expansion, etc until it seizes up.

The aforementioned thrust washers are on either side of the rod big end. The crank has to be split in order to replace them.

[J_T]

The cylinder sleeve is iron. The piston is aluminum. When the piston overheats from a lean mixture, it expands and the bore gets tighter. This causes more heat, more expansion, and aluminum starts depositing on the cylinder...causing more friction, more heat, more expansion, etc until it seizes up.

The aforementioned thrust washers are on either side of the rod big end. The crank has to be split in order to replace them.

Well if the crank as to be split...then it has to be replaced? Sounds pretty terminal for the crank. I guess that means more research for me on crank options. I haven't thought about it until now!

What are some good brands for cranks.. for my offroad/dualsport application? I don't need race...mainly reliability!

OEM?

[yan67]

you were talking about a carillo rod anyways for the pig. i have a pro x con rod in mine now. a machine shop rebuilt the crank with a new rod kit. i would not cheap out on the crank part. i believe it is cheaper to have it rebuilt than buy a new one. about half price in fact. i have a stage 1 cam in mine and i wouldn't go any further for fear of losing bottom end power. it already uses as much fuel as my truck. as for the valves, i'm on the fence. the stock sizes do such a good job. i would definately put stainless intakes in it for sure. YAN

[J_T]

I have a stage 1 in mine now...But thought if I was beefing it up...I'd go the next step.

with my 15/45 gearing on street I get 45-50mpg (depending on who I ride with and our speed)

You said don't cheap on the crank but you had yours rebuilt...are you recommending rebuilt as an option or saying to not try to skimp and do it right with new? I've heard the stock is quality...if rebuilt is just as reliable?

[Denn10]

You need to find out WHY it was low on oil also!! It didnt just dissapear into the air so prolly need to take a look at what the cause of that was. Doesnt sound like it was burning oil AKA rings or valve seals, so you prolly got some other issues maybe.