08 TE510 - Fire road use

I've been contemplating for several months about which TE to purchase, the 610 or 510. After thinking about the actual use of the bike I've concluded the following would be my normal use:

pavement (under 65 mph) 10 %

fire roads (under 75 mph) 35 %

double track ATV trails (25 to 75 mph) 40 %

single track (1st, 2nd gear stuff) 15 %

The 610 has allot of attributes that make the decision difficult, namely the gear box ratios and fuel capacity. However since I weigh 185lb with full gear I'm reluctant to purchase a 310 lb bike and still ride it fast in rough terrain with the expectation that it will perform like a 260 lbs woods bike.

Maintenance is not an issue and I fully expect to cope with any mechanical issues including valve checks and oil changes with ease. I've had no problem splitting the cases and doing entire rebuilds on modern day 4 stroke dirt bike engines.

Gearing seems to be the stumbling block of the TE510.. but is it really?

To address the gearing issue I put together an analysis in Excel looking at various gearing combos and comparing them to the TE610 and also the stock 13/47 TE 510 set-up.

Here are the conclusions I was able to draw:

The TE510 with a 15/47 combo yeilds the following and % difference from the TE610

1st - 17.16 6.7% taller

2nd - 13.82 8.5 % lower

3rd - 11.44 20.5% lower

4th - 9.32 21.5% lower

5th - 7.89 22.5% lower

6th - 6.985 29.1 % lower

with a 15/42 combo on the TE510 I noted the following in comparison to the TE 610:

1st - 15.338 16.6 taller

2nd - 12.35 3.1 % taller

3rd - 10.223 7.7% lower

4th - 8.329 8.6% lower

5th - 7.056 9.5% lower

6th - 6.243 15.41 % lower

Conclusions:

With a 15/42 you essentially loose first gear and add a taller 5th and 6th

With the 15/47 you change your ratio by 13.3%, 15/45 by 17% and 15/42 by 22.6% from stock TE 510 13/37.

So one could summize that your speeds would be affected from stock as follows if RPM remained constant with the 15/47 and 15/42 combo.

1st gear @ 10 mph stock to 11.3 mph (15/47) or 12.26 mph (15/42)

6th gear @ 65 mph stock to 73.6 mph (15/47) or 79.7 mph (15/42)

1st gear speed changes are not impacted as significatly as 6th gear speeds. As speeds increase, the ratios have a more significant impact.

My questions to those of you that own TE 510's

1- Who does 250 mile day rides on fire roads/ATV trails on their 510 and what gearing do you run?

2- Has anyone tried a 15/42 gearing combo?

3- When riding fire roads with stock gearing, do you even use first gear? Are 2nd gear starts the norm with stock gearing?

4- What is the rpm range of the engine (lowest rpm for crawl speed and rev imiter RPM)?

I know some of my gearing stats may be confusing but if somone can post an excel spreadsheet for me the ratios would be much simpler to understand and draw conclusions from.

Impressive research but I believe that you are overthinking this thing. Basically a 610 is a 50/50 machine and even though it is a very good one if you are only going to use the bike 10% of the time on the road @ under 65mph then the 510 is most likely the better choice.

I know some of my gearing stats may be confusing but if somone can post an excel spreadsheet for me the ratios would be much simpler to understand and draw conclusions from.

Usually I compare mph from 1st to top gear - for example mph at 5000 rpms in first gear vs top gear. 2.46 for the te250/450/510 & 3.38 for the te610.

For example 5000 rpms in first gear will give a certain speed, then that same rpm in top gear on a te610 the bike will go 3.38 times faster.

The orange bikes have street legal models with a top/bottom ratio in the 3 range that are not too heavy if that is of any interest.

Ruffus would be the guy to ask regarding re-gearing a TE510 :confused:

I run 15/47 on a TE450 on 250 mile day rides. The seat is painful BTW. I haven't taken it to single track yet to know if 1st is decent. Bike was too heavy and limited range to get there. I think it will be ok when I finish; i.e. it feels lighter without the heavy stock exhaust. It's good for two track trails.

Top speed with 15/47 (3.13 ratio) has been OK so far. 65 mph is 5700 rpm in 6th. I think 15/42 would be too tall. BTW 15/47 isn't a great sprocket combo for these 2008 bikes because the stock chain will be too short. So I would probably use a better sprocket combo to get 2.9 to 3.2 ratio or thereabouts.

I am impressed with the narrow ratio gears. You can usually find at least two gears to go the same speed, whereas on the wide ratio you kinda get stuck lugging or revving and little inbetween.

Chris,

What MPG have you attained when on your 250 mile rides?

Would a 15/45 combo work with a stock chain?

Does anyone have a dyno chart showing horsepower/torque of the new TE510? Or minimum RPM for crawl speed in 1st and what the rev limiter kicks in at??

Coffee,

Would you provide some real examples of MPH using your 3.38 ratio for the TE610 (1st and 6th)? say at 3K RPM?

Using the calculation method you mentioned, then one could assume that since Chris's TE 450 turns 65 mph using the 15/47 gearing combo at 5700 RPM it would be at ~27 mph in 1st at 5700 RPM??? Does that sound correct? Seems very fast for 1st gear to me?? 2nd gear starts would conceivable take you out to 40 mph when near the limiter and ticking 3rd...

27 X 2.46 = 66.4 mph

Get the 510 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris,

What MPG have you attained when on your 250 mile rides?

Would a 15/45 combo work with a stock chain?

1st tank, tooling around 30 to 55 mph street: 44.1m/0.877g = 50.3 mpg.

2nd tank, commuting 50 mph to 65 mph sustained street: 54.2m/1.196 = 45.3 mpg.

3rd tank, sand riding 20 to 40 mph: 42m/1.112 = 37.8 mpg.

That's with stock exhaust. I have just installed the power up kit so I will have to measure again.

Or minimum RPM for crawl speed in 1st and what the rev limiter kicks in at??

I added a Unipro adjustable cam throttle tube after the first ride. Off-idle was too choppy with the EFI. I have the cam on the slowest setting to improve the low rpm throttle accuracy.

I am going to rev the piss out of the 450 once it is broken in :-)

~27 mph in 1st at 5700 RPM???

Correct, between 26 and 27 mph @ 5700 rpm in 1st. I run a near identical gearing ratio spread on my KTM 300. The TE 6-speed and KTM 5-speed work out very similar, you just have an extra gear in the set for TE. I run the KTM in single track all the time. It's about throttle control, and weight distribution more than gearing.

I don't use the KTM clutch all that much any more, however the EE easy pull lever on it is also a good buy. I will have to check if one will fit the TE.

Fast1 - looks like you have your answer. Of course the real question is how slow in 1st gear can a bike go with the clutch out chugging along on a trail without stalling.

Fast1 - looks like you have your answer. Of course the real question is how slow in 1st gear can a bike go with the clutch out chugging along on a trail without stalling.

any real life examples you could share about the TE610?

any real life examples you could share about the TE610?

All I have is a 2006 TE250. I played with it a lot and it chugs at 7mph just fine after playing with it a bunch so that means little to you.

It all depends on sprockets, gear ratios, carb set up, etc. You need to get info from someone with a 610 - when comparing bikes you may want to ask the year cause occasionally husky changes the internal secondary gearbox gearing. I have not followed that info but owners manuals with that info can be downloaded.

Gearing seems to be the stumbling block of the TE510.. but is it really?

pavement (under 65 mph) 10 %

fire roads (under 75 mph) 35 %

double track ATV trails (25 to 75 mph) 40 %

single track (1st, 2nd gear stuff) 15 %

My questions to those of you that own TE 510's

1- Who does 250 mile day rides on fire roads/ATV trails on their 510 and what gearing do you run?

2- Has anyone tried a 15/42 gearing combo?

3- When riding fire roads with stock gearing, do you even use first gear? Are 2nd gear starts the norm with stock gearing?

4- What is the rpm range of the engine (lowest rpm for crawl speed and rev imiter RPM)?

I think you are talking apples to oranges here. I run 16/48 on my 510 and the useable operating range is 15-100 mph. We also ran 15/42 on our TC race bike. The useable mph were 20-110. If you run into a situation where you need to crawl, you are more likely to stall. Hence, with higher gearing, you need to be agressive on single track.

Since you are not going over 75, leave the gearing stock and you should be fine on single track.

The 610 crawls just fine at 5 mph.

I should clarify the speeds I mentioned.

Those would be speeds I would keep my MPH to when cruising, not necessarily what I would limit my max speeds to. When good conditions

exist, I would definately like to find the rev limiter in 6th but I would not intend to hold those r's for long durations. Also for those days when I would be doing dedicated single track riding, a stock combo (13/47) would be used.

Is there any benefit to running a 16/48 when the 15/45 provides the same ratio?

Is there any benefit to running a 16/48 when the 15/45 provides the same ratio?

Chain length and thus wheel position differences. A chain can only be lengthened 2 links at a time and that is a pretty far movement of the wheelbase. Sometimes you have to pick a certain combo to get the wheelbase where you want it.

Also, in this example, 15/45 would fit with the stock chain length. 16/48 would require more links.

I run 15\48 on my 510 & feel that is the best all around gearing, on the highway, @ 60 MPH I'm revving about 5700, off the line & at slow speeds it seems perfect for my style of riding. I can't comment on tight single track yet because I haven't done any yet. But just from the feel of it in my limited use, I think I've got the best possible ratio to do everything from future single track to wide open WooooooooHoooooooo sections to pavement pounding.

If 15\47 is factory gearing your right on the money & I wouldn't touch it unless you find after a couple weeks of riding that you have to slip the clutch too much in the tight stuff. It may stall on you a few a few times when its new, but once its broken in, the bikes awesome, power from down low in the nether regions all the way to the rev limiter. I very much doubt I ride anywhere that I'd need any other gear ratio.

P.S. Thanks Coffee for recommendation :confused: even though theres many other much more qualified in their opinions:D

Fast1,

I have been pondering the same question for about 6 months now and am only a few weeks away from buying and not really any closer to knowing the answer.

My ratio percentages are probably identical to yours.

So far this thread has not really answered the ultimate questions,

i.e. Is the 610 too big for the tight going

AND will the 510 be able to cruise comfortably at about 100km/ on open fire roads & bitumen transports.

Who's to know??

I'm just going to try and get a little test ride of each one before I spend the $12,000. Think that is fair?

Ride the 510 at 100km/h down the bitumen.

Ride the 610 like a trials bike up and down the gutter.

What else can we do?

I'm just going to try and get a little test ride of each one before I spend the $12,000. Think that is fair?

Ride the 510 at 100km/h down the bitumen.

Ride the 610 like a trials bike up and down the gutter.

What else can we do?

Test rides are definitely the best way of doing things.

What one person likes another doesn't. Some people think 5000 rpm is running a bike too fast (local friend of mine) while others have no problems getting close to the rev limiter.

People have a different ideas how much 'grunt' is enough at low speeds down tight trails at low speeds, lots of stuff like that.

So far this thread has not really answered the ultimate questions,

1. Is the 610 too big for the tight going?

2. will the 510 be able to cruise comfortably at about 100km/ on open fire roads & bitumen transports?

The 610 is not too big for the tight going. First gear lugs real well in the 5-15mph stuff. I can't speak for cruising, but Dual-Sporters seem to carry more stuff and do more highway miles.

OTOH, I have to go 15-25 mph in the same stuff on the 510 with the gearing I have. The throttle is my friend for the most part as I try to keep power on the wheel. I pick a line and go, the suspension soaks up my bad decisions. If I go any slower, I find myself working the clutch, losing momentum and risking a stall or fall.

As far as cruising, 90 mph (145 km/hr) is good all day or until the front end starts shaking in the loose stuff cause I don't have a stabalizer. I stay away from highways 'cause they have more enforcement people.:confused:

As for comfort, I am still getting used to my dancing partner. The more saddle time we have, the more intimate we become. :excuseme:

baja pavement 15%

good baja roads: 50%

bad baja roads: 30%

very bad baja roads (silt, deep sand, whoops & wash outs): 5%

Hope this helps

Thanks to all that have replied..

If I could spend an hour on each (510 and 610) I would have all the answers to my questons.. but that is not possible.

My fear with the TE610 is that it would be too big, heavy and clumsy when hammering through the whoops at 30 to 50 mph or when laying into 30 mph burmed turns. I feel that in extremely rutted and muddy environments that the 610 would require much slower and cautious riding where the TE510, due to weight and geometry, would lend itself to being very rewarding when riding aggressively.

I'm not as concerned about single track with the 610 since my single track riding (only 10%) would be more for seeing the sights and not riding extremely aggresively.

Has anyone spent time on both the 510 and 610 that could comment???

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