690 engine oil

[crazybrit]

...if you've changed your oil yourself, you've already violated the terms of your warranty (per the manual).

Ok.

#1 - every KTM has this in the manual, it doesn't apply to the USA but they still print it. Relax, chill, if you do your own work and keep records you're fine. Obviously as long as you do it right. If KTM can prove you screwed up then of course they're off the hook.

#2 - KTM started getting reports of premature engine wear when using 10w50. This is why they issued the tech bulletin.

#3 - As far as the original poster's question, running 10w50 Repsol for TWENTY miles isn't going to damage the motor. You could probably run some 5w30 crap from Wallymart for this long.

#4 - Running Rotella synth (which is what? a 5w-40 IIRC). That has to be a bad idea. I'm sure it's a great oil for a bike that requires a 40 weight oil but they are specifying a 60 weight for a reason. There is no controversy here, at a minimum make sure your oil meets the specified high temp viscosity requirement. You can maybe fudge the low temp viscosity depending on what temps you start the bike in. If this isn't clear, running a 40 weight oil in a $9k bike which calls for a 60 weight isn't smart. If your dealer doesn't stock the 60w, it is orderable via Parts Unlimited so anyone can order it. Stop whining and just get on the phone :ride

[Thinc2]

Husky specifies 10-60 oil also...I've put nearly 8000 miles on a TE-610 running 20-50 Amsoil with no problems...I seriously doubt that failure to use 10-60 will result in any problems with my KTM either...

+1 Several people with high mileage TE610s that have used a variety of oils (none of them 10-60) - no issues reported so far.

[crazybrit]

+1 Several people with high mileage TE610s that have used a variety of oils (none of them 10-60) - no issues reported so far.

I'm guessing you're not any kind of scientist ? The above, might make some sense if the 690e and the TE610 used the same motor. The fact that they both require 10w60 and that you have some apparant sampling of bikes that have had "no issues reported" (is this the same as no issues btw?) doesn't really allow one to make much of a conclusion regarding the 690 enduro and it's need for 10w60.

[texskinny]

One would presume that KTM has not invented some new type of engine that is so unusual as to require an oil that only Motorex makes...according to the KTM manual...you should only use Motorex products for virtually every fluid in the motocycle...and the associated cleaning products should also be Motorex. It doesn't take a scientist (or a genius) to conclude that these recommendations are only a marketing agreement between KTM and Motorex. Some cursory research has turned up the fact that several of the API specs for 10w-60 and 20w-50 are the same...

[sobiloff]

One would presume that KTM has not invented some new type of engine that is so unusual as to require an oil that only Motorex makes

You know what happens when you presume (a/k/a assume)...

Some cursory research has turned up the fact that several of the API specs for 10w-60 and 20w-50 are the same...

First, it's the SAE that determines the viscosity specs, not the API. All the SAE specs for the different viscosities share some relationship, but viscosity isn't one of 'em and that's what we're talking about here. The formal SAE document controlling viscosity grading is the J300. You can see the most pertinent factors in the viscosity grades in this table.

Second, the API makes the standards for the service categories, the most current for gasoline engines being SM, and diesel being CJ-4+. KTM does not refer to the API service category standards; instead it refers to the JASO MA service standard, which is specific to motorcycles.

texskinny, don't confuse the marketing arrangement with Motorex with the performance requirements for those fluids.

[crazybrit]

You know what happens when you presume (a/k/a assume)...

First, it's the SAE that determines the viscosity specs, not the API. All the SAE specs for the different viscosities share some relationship, but viscosity isn't one of 'em and that's what we're talking about here. The formal SAE document controlling viscosity grading is the J300. You can see the most pertinent factors in the viscosity grades in this table.

Second, the API makes the standards for the service categories, the most current for gasoline engines being SM, and diesel being CJ-4+. KTM does not refer to the API service category standards; instead it refers to the JASO MA service standard, which is specific to motorcycles.

texskinny, don't confuse the marketing arrangement with Motorex with the performance requirements for those fluids.

+1. I was about to reply saying the same thing. The API rating has zero to do with the viscosity of the oil. KTM issues a service bulletin because they had been discovering premature engine wear on 690SM bikes that had been using 50w oil. If this fact doesn't bother you, then for sure continue to use 50w. If I'd just spent $9k on a bike and the manufacturer issued a bulletin saying it needed 60w, I'd be using 60w.

The stuff about using only Motorex brand is obvious crap (annoying that KTM keeps saying it, especially in the US manuals where it's totally unenforcible). I'm not even saying you need to use an oil that meets the Jaso standard, could be a good idea, all I was saying was that 100% I'd be using a 60 weight oil. A 15w60 would probably work ok depending on what temp you live and typically start the bike in. 10w goes way down.

Tony

[sobiloff]

Just got the results back from the used oil analysis on the OEM oil that KTM shipped the bike with. Check out <http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1179563#Post1179563>.

[texskinny]

You know what happens when you presume (a/k/a assume)...

First, it's the SAE that determines the viscosity specs, not the API. All the SAE specs for the different viscosities share some relationship, but viscosity isn't one of 'em and that's what we're talking about here. The formal SAE document controlling viscosity grading is the J300. You can see the most pertinent factors in the viscosity grades in this table.

Second, the API makes the standards for the service categories, the most current for gasoline engines being SM, and diesel being CJ-4+. KTM does not refer to the API service category standards; instead it refers to the JASO MA service standard, which is specific to motorcycles.

texskinny, don't confuse the marketing arrangement with Motorex with the performance requirements for those fluids.

If you look at the table you referenced you will notice that the high shear rate viscosity spec is the same (3.7) for 50w or 60w...the low shear rate viscosity is different...from what I read the low shear rate is essentially "how well it pours out of a bottle" for a simple explanation...the high shear rate is what determines performance when used with bearings/gears....

[sobiloff]

If you look at the table you referenced you will notice that the high shear rate viscosity spec is the same (3.7) for 50w or 60w...the low shear rate viscosity is different...from what I read the low shear rate is essentially "how well it pours out of a bottle" for a simple explanation...the high shear rate is what determines performance when used with bearings/gears....

The tests are also done at different temperatures, with the low-shear-rate being done at 100° C and the high-shear-rate done at 150° C. Now, your oil is expected to operate at around 100° C, so the 150° C test is a high stress test for abnormal operating conditions. Neither are really a "pour out of the bottle" test; that's usually just a value at 40° C that the manufacturer provides.

So, to be clear, a 50-weight oil will not perform the same as a 60-weight oil at the expected operating temperature in an engine (100° C).

Similarly, you can see from that same table that the 10W and 20W low temperature pumping and cranking requirements are different as well.

Conclusion: 10W-60 and 20W-50 are not the same oil.

[gdavis2265]

You know, Chapparell has this 10W60 oil for sale at $44 a gallon. Oil changes are approx. 3000 miles and only uses 2 quarts. So it is really not that bad, especially after spending 10 large out the door. I'm not taking any chances.

[dirtjack]

Just got the results back from the used oil analysis on the OEM oil that KTM shipped the bike with. Check out <http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1179563#Post1179563>.

It has been my experience (and confirmed by past KTM maintenance manuals) that KTM uses an mineral oil in new engines for break-in purposes and then recommends a full synthetic oil for use there after (unless a re-build is done and then it is mineral oil for break-in again). Are you sure the oil in this analysis is the Motorex 10 - 60? As far as I know, maintenance manuals for the 690 Enduro are not yet available for sale to the public, but surely maintenance information for the 690 Enduro is available to dealers and they know the answers. Any dealers reading or dealer employees?

[sobiloff]

It has been my experience (and confirmed by past KTM maintenance manuals) that KTM uses an mineral oil in new engines for break-in purposes and then recommends a full synthetic oil for use there after (unless a re-build is done and then it is mineral oil for break-in again). Are you sure the oil in this analysis is the Motorex 10 - 60?

I'm fairly confident, as both samples (the stuff that came in the crankcase and the stuff that came out of the jug) have the same chemical profile. Here's a link to the analysis of the virgin Motorex Cross Power oil sample.

[soggysandwitch]

One would presume that KTM has not invented some new type of engine that is so unusual as to require an oil that only Motorex makes...according to the KTM manual...you should only use Motorex products for virtually every fluid in the motocycle...and the associated cleaning products should also be Motorex. It doesn't take a scientist (or a genius) to conclude that these recommendations are only a marketing agreement between KTM and Motorex. Some cursory research has turned up the fact that several of the API specs for 10w-60 and 20w-50 are the same...

? to what this man says !.... nice to see someone with common sense.....with 1800 miles on my 08 KTM DUKE 690., the Valvoline full Synthetic 20/50 , [walmart $6.50 ] that has been in it since the 600 miles service- has not DESTROYED the motor.......

no big surprise here, as the internal combustion engine has been around for 120 yrs... not like there is anything special going on in there......

[dirtjack]

I'm fairly confident, as both samples (the stuff that came in the crankcase and the stuff that came out of the jug) have the same chemical profile. Here's a link to the analysis of the virgin Motorex Cross Power oil sample.

I had seen both analyses and, while I am a scientist, this is so far away from my expertise that I was unable to recognize that they are the same oil.

I have a question about the amount of oil to use when refilling. The 2007 690 manuals (2007 SM Manual for example) say to refill with 2 L, while the 2008 manuals all say to refill with 1.7 L. When I got home from the required 1000 KM dealer service on my 690 E, I noticed no oil visible in the sight glass when the bike was on the side stand. The original KTM oil filling showed near the top mark when on the side stand so I just assumed that was the proper way (checking while on the side stand) and I hadn't yet read that part of the manual. So the question is, do you think the 2007 690 engines use a different volume of oil than the 2008 690 engines? I'm also wondering why KTM used an initial filling of somewhat more oil than they recommend when refilling. Did anyone else notice an initial over-filling of their bikes?

[sobiloff]

I had seen both analyses and, while I am a scientist, this is so far away from my expertise that I was unable to recognize that they are the same oil.

I pay a tribologist to review my oil samples and his professional conclusion was that the oils were the same. ?

So the question is, do you think the 2007 690 engines use a different volume of oil than the 2008 690 engines? I'm also wondering why KTM used an initial filling of somewhat more oil than they recommend when refilling. Did anyone else notice an initial over-filling of their bikes?

My '08 Enduro, as it came from the factory, didn't show any oil in the sight glass when on its side stand. I'm not aware of any mechanical changes between the '07 and the '08 engines, so I'd guess the changes were only to clarify/correct the manual.

[Refresh]

Thank you so much for this information!

Is there a place or person that does this for oil/tires/filters/brakes/etc...

When do you expect to hit 5k? Cant wait to see what the results of the analysis are and hear what you have to say.

BTW lovin my DUKE!

[my2sense]

can anyone tell me for certain how much the 690 engine weighs?

how many hp can you get out of one and how reliable are they after building?

which is more reliable, the 660 yamaha motor or the 690 ktm

[MojaveThumper]

I brought this point up to the dealer yesterday while picking up the 690. He looked where the older models stated "use moterex only". 2010's don't have that requirement or disclamer in the manual. Only requirement is the wt of 20/60 and synthetic. He did say no matter what run that weight, synthetic and, ensure it is MOTORCYCLE specific oil. Aside from that there should be no problems.

[lhark]

I've used 20W-50 Amsoil M/C oil in everything on two wheels I own, including the first change on an 08 690SMC, an 02 LC4, and it'll go into the 06 525 EXC I just bought. You can get all the white paper info from most reputable manufacturers of oil, on everything they make. KTM recommends Motorex.....Harley dealers recommend Harley oil. I really don't see much difference, especially since my KTM books recommend Motorex cleaners, and polishes for them, too. JOGO

[medicshawn]

Amsoil 20W-50 is the way to go for me too. Great stuff, check it out at http://www.teamjohnsonracing.com